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Old 11-17-2016, 05:41 PM
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Default Information/Cyber/russia


Gonna be a while before I update MT again so I figured Id start sharing some articles from around the way. Very interesting commentary on pg. 37:

https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/f...ools-giles.pdf

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Old 11-17-2016, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
Gonna be a while before I update MT again so I figured Id start sharing some articles from around the way. Very interesting commentary on pg. 37:

https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/f...ools-giles.pdf
But that's just what all highly paid lawyers defending highly paid clients do - so is most likely not strictly related to Russia.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:08 PM
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Actually this kind of thinking is strictly related to Russia. You shouldn't think of their actions, ideology, or doctrine, in western terms. A lawyer defending a client represents certain ideals which are absent in their system. In the west, and specifically here in America, the lawyer, as does the public, presumes innocence and even if guilt is assumed the lawyer must still work in the interests of his client as per law. I recall John Adams defending the soldiers of the Boston massacre. For russia there are no such ideals in their system and I wont say judiciary system because that is nonexistent in the sense that the west understands. But its not arbitrary either. Those who are in power are immune to the law so long as they hold the pleasure of the czar, that is putin. In reality the system is a façade meant to ensure a modicum of public order but more importantly to control the political atmosphere. It should never be mistaken as an objective institution of justice or an independent system. There is a wealth of information anent to that and I will provide those links tomorrow.

Last edited by bluewpc; 11-17-2016 at 09:12 PM.. Reason: #1 Expansion on connotation
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Old 11-18-2016, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
Actually this kind of thinking is strictly related to Russia. You shouldn't think of their actions, ideology, or doctrine, in western terms. A lawyer defending a client represents certain ideals which are absent in their system. In the west, and specifically here in America, the lawyer, as does the public, presumes innocence and even if guilt is assumed the lawyer must still work in the interests of his client as per law. I recall John Adams defending the soldiers of the Boston massacre. For russia there are no such ideals in their system and I wont say judiciary system because that is nonexistent in the sense that the west understands. But its not arbitrary either. Those who are in power are immune to the law so long as they hold the pleasure of the czar, that is putin. In reality the system is a façade meant to ensure a modicum of public order but more importantly to control the political atmosphere. It should never be mistaken as an objective institution of justice or an independent system. There is a wealth of information anent to that and I will provide those links tomorrow.
I think you have a very romantic notion of the legal system, what follows is my P.O.V.,

Four people are prosecuted for committing exactly the same crime;

Person 1 (has zero money) - gets the maximum for a person without a crminak record
Person 2 (has $10,000) - gets a reduced sentence cf Person 1
Person 3 (has $100,000) - gets community service and a prison sentence that does not need to be served (I forget the legal term)
Person 4 (has $1,000,000) - found innocent of all wrong doing
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Old 11-18-2016, 12:56 AM
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The 'West' is currently in the midst of a meeja campaign of anti-Russian propaganda, so it's as well to investigate the sources of this information. I can't help thinking much of the political establishment's disdain for Trump is because he refuses to join in with this russophobic narrative.
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Old 11-18-2016, 01:05 AM
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A good source for alternative view is John Pilger's blog:

In the US, the anti-Russia campaign has been elevated to virtual reality. The New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, an economist with a Nobel Prize, has called Donald Trump the "Siberian Candidate" because Trump is Putin's man, he says. Trump had dared to suggest, in a rare lucid moment, that war with Russia might be a bad idea. In fact, he has gone further and removed American arms shipments to Ukraine from the Republican platform. "Wouldn't it be great if we got along with Russia," he said.

This is why America's warmongering liberal establishment hates him. Trump's racism and ranting demagoguery have nothing to do with it. Bill and Hillary Clinton's record of racism and extremism can out-trump Trump's any day.
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Old 11-18-2016, 07:19 AM
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@pickle I have no romantic view of the judicial system but I also know that its so clear cut as you make it out to be. And I know from first hand experience But no I'm not what you would call affluent to put it mildly but I have been very fortunate every time I've had to go before a judge. Nothing serious mind you.

However perception despite the common adage is not reality. Your point of view is not applicable without statistics to back them up. That is important so I'll wait for you to do the research and we can continue the conversation based on those findings.

As for flyingtart. I'm hoping that this thread will attract some putin bots so they can be dissected. Not literally mind you and flyingtart isn't quite one but he's close. A quick glance at his alternative view this Pilger fellow very quickly reveals him to be pushing moscow's narrative. The man has done interviews with RT, Sputnik, Global Research and written propaganda articles for all of them. Do a search on Pilger and you will very quickly see that the vast majority of his articles are unabashedly pro-moscow and push its narrative.

Now as more and more bots come in youll start to see common themes, names, methods of argumentation, narratives, theories, what have you crop up. The point here is not to debunk or falsify every piece of crap that comes your way but to learn how to recognize it and how to protect yourself against it.

Here are some links by Pilger

https://sputniknews.com/radio_loud_a...ns-presidency/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D92Gc7f6Lk

Oh and as a direct refutation to the above interview: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/was-russia-...nsider-1590894

As we point out earlier it makes no difference that they directly contradict themselves because there's no interest in the truth and the information they put out cannot be destroyed. The only way to do that is to recognize it when you see it.

Last edited by bluewpc; 11-18-2016 at 07:28 AM.. Reason: #1 Added links
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Old 11-18-2016, 08:18 AM
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I'm struggling to make sense of your post. What is a 'putin bot'? Since I'm close to one, it's only fair you tell me what it is. And do I need special utensils to dissect one? Will anaesthesia be required? I would hate for the poor thing to suffer unnecessarily.
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Old 11-18-2016, 08:30 AM
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A putinbot is a paid troll who pushes a pro-kremlin narrative whilst also disrupting legitimate discussion.

And as I can never say no to good old Texas steak i've found that suffering brings out the flavor. Its why I wont eat free range chickens.
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Old 11-18-2016, 08:38 AM
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People get paid to troll??? Who pays you? Fools and their money, eh?
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Old 11-18-2016, 08:57 AM
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No not fools at all. The people who typically pay you to disseminate their narrative are the ones who deploy thermobaric weapons against civilians, who condone gassing them, assassinating dissidents. if you have no conscience then you can do this but you wouldnt hire someone like you because youll do it for free. Typically they have wings of the GRU or FSB do it. OMON to my knowledge doesn't engage in this internationally. Like the MVD they're more concerned with domestic audiences and the near abroad.

Here is something that you would be typically lying about. Gas attacks. Either they don't happen or they're done by the US as false flag operations or they're done by the rebels or footage and images are doctored and any number of permutations on those. You would also be actively engaged in doctoring those images if you had any experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2TCJaJWbEA

Last edited by bluewpc; 11-18-2016 at 09:05 AM.. Reason: Edit #1 Grammar, added method to last paragraph
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Old 11-18-2016, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
People get paid to troll??? Who pays you? Fools and their money, eh?


Lots of people get paid to troll, people of all stripes and flavors. PR firms are frequently hired to change public opinion on a topic, or just muddy the water around a situation. The thing about social media that makes it easy is that tons of idiots will believe almost anything as long as it appears to benefit them, and then magnify the lies exponentially. And it's not always hired firms. Most companies and organizations have PR departments. Not all of them do crappy things, in fact, the majority are probably just trying to promote their work or cause, but there are bunches of nefarious actors.
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Old 11-18-2016, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
@pickle I have no romantic view of the judicial system but I also know that its so clear cut as you make it out to be. And I know from first hand experience But no I'm not what you would call affluent to put it mildly but I have been very fortunate every time I've had to go before a judge. Nothing serious mind you.

However perception despite the common adage is not reality. Your point of view is not applicable without statistics to back them up. That is important so I'll wait for you to do the research and we can continue the conversation based on those findings.

As for flyingtart. I'm hoping that this thread will attract some putin bots so they can be dissected. Not literally mind you and flyingtart isn't quite one but he's close. A quick glance at his alternative view this Pilger fellow very quickly reveals him to be pushing moscow's narrative. The man has done interviews with RT, Sputnik, Global Research and written propaganda articles for all of them. Do a search on Pilger and you will very quickly see that the vast majority of his articles are unabashedly pro-moscow and push its narrative.

Now as more and more bots come in youll start to see common themes, names, methods of argumentation, narratives, theories, what have you crop up. The point here is not to debunk or falsify every piece of crap that comes your way but to learn how to recognize it and how to protect yourself against it.

Here are some links by Pilger

https://sputniknews.com/radio_loud_a...ns-presidency/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D92Gc7f6Lk

Oh and as a direct refutation to the above interview: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/was-russia-...nsider-1590894

As we point out earlier it makes no difference that they directly contradict themselves because there's no interest in the truth and the information they put out cannot be destroyed. The only way to do that is to recognize it when you see it.
I would have thought paying for legal representation implies there is a cost associated with legal representation? QED?
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Old 11-18-2016, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Lots of people get paid to troll, people of all stripes and flavors.
You could be right, although frankly it does sound like another paranoid fantasy. The internet seems to draw all types of frothy mouthed loons. I can only assume Matron is taking rather too much time off, leaving her charges to make free with her laptop to wreak havoc on us simple people.

Either way, I don't believe in cruelty to any creature, even poor little putin bots who never asked to be born, even in the fertile imagination of a maniac. I'm planning a "Je Suis Putin Bot" march in the town centre tomorrow if anyone wants to join me.

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Old 11-18-2016, 04:45 PM
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@bottom of course there's a cost, there's always a cost. But in this country even if you can't afford a lawyer you are provided one. That is a relatively recent development within judiciary systems. So again I await your statistics

Now moving back to the tart we see now that he has run for the most part the full course of discussion such as it is. Were not concerned that his mind is unchanged as that was not our goal our goal is in examining his behavior and methodology.

The end is typically marked by insults and dismissals of various sorts. As we can see in his reply. One thing though is his afterthought of denouncing cruelty. We can take for granted in these discussions that espoused affinity towards even the most basic aspects of morality or human decency are fraudulent. These are the people who turn in their fathers for personal benefit.

So quick summary of his posts:

#1 Opening- Unsubstantiated denunciation of the topic
#2 Introduction of Propaganda- Provision of pro-kremlin disinformation from an outlet that you would not typically associate as pro-kremlin. In this case Pilger. The fact that it is never announced that these talking heads are pro-kremlin is of the utmost importance.
#3-4 Slander (not exactly the word, Ill find a better one later)Attempt to undermine known facts through mockery
#5 Defeat- dismissal and insults, retreat into nihilistic cynicism.

We should note here that at no point in time were the actual facts debated or were their veracity called into question. To do such a thing is an invitation for disaster. At all times the propagandist must not engage or allow others to engage in the direct examination of facts.

For now tart has served his purpose. Eventually he will contradict himself as his sources of information are contradictory and at that time we can revisit this conversation and see how the ideology is vacuous and fluid but until then we've wrung the basic framework out of him and as others like him arrive we can compare and contrast the various progressions of this methodology of argumentation noting as we go along any new features.

@brian aye but in this case this is state sponsored and is a type of warfare known as Information Warfare. Valery Gerasimov released this chart several years ago as a template for russian warfare:

http://cdn.warontherocks.com/wp-cont...ovs-linjal.jpg

Now whether or not russia strictly adheres to this methodology or if they simply want the US and European powers to believe it does is something up for debate notwithstanding the natural evolution warfare always undergoes.

Last edited by bluewpc; 11-18-2016 at 04:50 PM.. Reason: #1 response to Brian #2 #2 changed material to propaganda
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Old 11-18-2016, 05:41 PM
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So tart is a ruskbot?

Well, who would have guessed.
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Old 11-18-2016, 06:09 PM
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@brian I doubt he's a putinbot. He just regurgitates russian propaganda.
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Old 11-18-2016, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
@bottom of course there's a cost, there's always a cost. But in this country even if you can't afford a lawyer you are provided one. That is a relatively recent development within judiciary systems. So again I await your statistics

Now moving back to the tart we see now that he has run for the most part the full course of discussion such as it is. Were not concerned that his mind is unchanged as that was not our goal our goal is in examining his behavior and methodology.

The end is typically marked by insults and dismissals of various sorts. As we can see in his reply. One thing though is his afterthought of denouncing cruelty. We can take for granted in these discussions that espoused affinity towards even the most basic aspects of morality or human decency are fraudulent. These are the people who turn in their fathers for personal benefit.

So quick summary of his posts:

#1 Opening- Unsubstantiated denunciation of the topic
#2 Introduction of Propaganda- Provision of pro-kremlin disinformation from an outlet that you would not typically associate as pro-kremlin. In this case Pilger. The fact that it is never announced that these talking heads are pro-kremlin is of the utmost importance.
#3-4 Slander (not exactly the word, Ill find a better one later)Attempt to undermine known facts through mockery
#5 Defeat- dismissal and insults, retreat into nihilistic cynicism.

We should note here that at no point in time were the actual facts debated or were their veracity called into question. To do such a thing is an invitation for disaster. At all times the propagandist must not engage or allow others to engage in the direct examination of facts.

For now tart has served his purpose. Eventually he will contradict himself as his sources of information are contradictory and at that time we can revisit this conversation and see how the ideology is vacuous and fluid but until then we've wrung the basic framework out of him and as others like him arrive we can compare and contrast the various progressions of this methodology of argumentation noting as we go along any new features.

@brian aye but in this case this is state sponsored and is a type of warfare known as Information Warfare. Valery Gerasimov released this chart several years ago as a template for russian warfare:

http://cdn.warontherocks.com/wp-cont...ovs-linjal.jpg

Now whether or not russia strictly adheres to this methodology or if they simply want the US and European powers to believe it does is something up for debate notwithstanding the natural evolution warfare always undergoes.
Well you acknowledged then promptly ignored it? Why does law cost and is the outcome correlated with the cost? If it is not there must be a lot of rich people spending money for no additional benefit.
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Old 11-18-2016, 06:45 PM
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No I'm not ignoring it. I'm asking for facts.

Now here's some links that might support your proposition:

https://creativedestruction.wordpres...ter-sentences/

http://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/fi.../2015/md15.pdf

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html

Now here is the thing. You pay for what you get. The better lawyer can provide a better outcome, costs more. But that is not to say that you're given a less fair trial. No evidence is added or subtracted, you don't get bonus witnesses. That's not inherent inequality that's inequality of outcome which I am perfectly fine with. What I am not ok with is corruption where the basic facts are twisted or omitted.

Also in your earlier post where you did not know the word for a sentence that did not have to be served I believe you were looking for the term commute.
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Old 11-18-2016, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
No I'm not ignoring it. I'm asking for facts.

Now here's some links that might support your proposition:

https://creativedestruction.wordpres...ter-sentences/

http://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/fi.../2015/md15.pdf

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html

Now here is the thing. You pay for what you get. The better lawyer can provide a better outcome, costs more. But that is not to say that you're given a less fair trial. No evidence is added or subtracted, you don't get bonus witnesses. That's not inherent inequality that's inequality of outcome which I am perfectly fine with. What I am not ok with is corruption where the basic facts are twisted or omitted.

Also in your earlier post where you did not know the word for a sentence that did not have to be served I believe you were looking for the term commute.
Yes that's exactly it, money is correlated with a better outcome, I'm struggling to understand how that is not biased or how it is fair?

For example, a person (as an agent) with no money who commits a crime, and for example, has no prior conviction will be required to accept a penalty. A person (as an agent) with heaps of money who commits exactly the same crime in the former example, has no prior convictions should also be required to accept the same penalty. But in the latter example they receive a reduced or zero penalty.

How did the law magically change, and how can a poor person commit a future crime in the same manner as a rich person?
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Old 11-18-2016, 07:35 PM
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Because quite simply our legal system allows for degrees and mitigating factors. That's it. Sometimes those factors are taken into consideration, sometimes not. There's nothing magical about it.

I put it like this when I had to go to court I presented myself as best I could, articulated my defense to the best of my ability, and was I dare say somewhat eloquent. My fine was reduced and I got no points on my license. The many who went before me did not dress for the occasion spoke poorly and received heavier punishments. There are so many factors playing that to boil it down simply to economics is Marxist in my opinion.

Oh and since this thread is primarily for Information and Cyber Warfare and russia in general could we bud this off to a new thread?
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Old 11-19-2016, 08:46 AM
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38039282
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Old 11-19-2016, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
Yes that's exactly it, money is correlated with a better outcome, I'm struggling to understand how that is not biased or how it is fair?

For example, a person (as an agent) with no money who commits a crime, and for example, has no prior conviction will be required to accept a penalty. A person (as an agent) with heaps of money who commits exactly the same crime in the former example, has no prior convictions should also be required to accept the same penalty. But in the latter example they receive a reduced or zero penalty.

How did the law magically change, and how can a poor person commit a future crime in the same manner as a rich person?
When I was in college, I was busted for possession with intent to distribute and other drug related crimes. My parents weren't inclined to help and couldn't really afford to, but fortunately for me, my brother took on my legal expenses.

While serving my 3 weekends in jail and subsequently through volunteer work with parolees and people on probation, I've met people who had similar and even lesser offenses who did serious time and/or where saddled with much harsher sentences. Some naively go before the judge without a lawyer. Most are assigned overworked and inexperienced public defenders.

I had a lawyer who had lots of experience with my offense. He finagled a court date in front of a judge he knew. He told me what to do before my court appearance to make it look like I was cleaning up my act. He told me to keep my mouth shut unless I was specifically addressed. I stood before the judge, contrite, clean cut and white in my new suit and I got a slap on the wrist.

Most of us are aware of the inequities, but until you see it up close, I think it's hard for people to imagine how lopsided things are. Money makes all the difference. It's like there are two different legal systems.
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Old 11-20-2016, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
When I was in college, I was busted for possession with intent to distribute and other drug related crimes. My parents weren't inclined to help and couldn't really afford to, but fortunately for me, my brother took on my legal expenses.

While serving my 3 weekends in jail and subsequently through volunteer work with parolees and people on probation, I've met people who had similar and even lesser offenses who did serious time and/or where saddled with much harsher sentences. Some naively go before the judge without a lawyer. Most are assigned overworked and inexperienced public defenders.

I had a lawyer who had lots of experience with my offense. He finagled a court date in front of a judge he knew. He told me what to do before my court appearance to make it look like I was cleaning up my act. He told me to keep my mouth shut unless I was specifically addressed. I stood before the judge, contrite, clean cut and white in my new suit and I got a slap on the wrist.

Most of us are aware of the inequities, but until you see it up close, I think it's hard for people to imagine how lopsided things are. Money makes all the difference. It's like there are two different legal systems.
That is one reason why I am not happy with Jeff Sessions as a pick for AG. The War on Drugs serves only to keep prisons full, and as the late 80s/early 90s Crack epidemic an now our heroin epidemic show seems powerless to combat real issues.
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Old 11-20-2016, 06:04 AM
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BluWRC -while understanding that Vladimir Putin is an ex KGB thug, I still find a good bit to admire in the man . Does this grant me immediate bot status?
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
BluWRC -while understanding that Vladimir Putin is an ex KGB thug, I still find a good bit to admire in the man . Does this grant me immediate bot status?


No, it either makes you sympathetic to a thugs way of handling their business by creating or joining a narrative which allows violence to control the undesirable actions of people who don't agree with your point of view, or it makes you a patsy for said cause and allowance. Admiring Putin is like seeing the genius in Stalin or Hitler or Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud.
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:40 AM
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Or Il Duce. After all, he made the trains run on time.
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Old 11-20-2016, 10:09 AM
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https://warisboring.com/breitbart-co...156#.coqnoxt06

Mohican I'll respond later I got things to do today but I'll try and get a response in before the night is out.
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Old 11-20-2016, 12:06 PM
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@Mohican ok so I could refer you to the above posts as an answer to your question but I think maybe I can answer it in a different way and you can tell me if I answered your question and if not then I can maybe reformulate my response.

Alright here is the fundamental question at the heart of your question: If we admire evil men does that reflect upon ourselves? Well I say yes it does. And let me say right now I'm the first to admit that evil has its attractions and every person has their affinity towards evil and capacity for it that's just human nature but it serves no purpose. Its purely destructive.

So take a look at putin. He desires power. He has power. He desires wealth. He has wealth. All he can do is seek more of the same. Its unbridled consumption at the expense of people. This is actually very simplistic he has real geopolitical goals mostly the restoration of the soviet union which in my opinion is a monster that never died.

I'm looking for a copy of the speech but unfortunately and not surprisingly the English version has been taken down from the official site:

http://kremlin.ru/events/president/n...12_87086.shtml

Also something interesting I ran into in searching for the speech in English. Do these policy adoptions sound familiar:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4480745.stm

Here is the speech itself. I'll see about getting a translation done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Xlwd91IlY

Now to get back to your question. Well since this is a writing forum let's turn to literature. Let's look at Milton's Satan from Paradise Lost. Well here's an admirable rebel. He's courageous in the face of mortal danger, he's eloquent, he's indomitable, he believes in his cause. But here's his final resolution:

So farwel Hope, and with Hope farwel Fear,
Farwel Remorse: all Good to me is lost;
Evil be thou my good; by thee at least
Divided Empire with Heav'ns King I hold
By thee, and more then half perhaps will reigne;
As Man ere long, and this new World shall know.

He takes his anger out on a people who have nothing to do with his fight. He destroys them knowing full well they're innocent and that it will accomplish nothing. Well the moment he starts acting in such a way that has no outcome well then all his reasons become him as Iago as Coleridge described him: The motive hunting of a motiveless malignity.

And that's the moment he loses or should lose our admiration. Because what he does is resign himself to evil because that's gratifying and liberating and the easy thing to do. Its why so many people surrender to their impulses because the alternative is so much harder. And so to continue admiring that is to admire vapid destruction and extreme self indulgence to the exclusion of all other considerations and to feed that instinct in onself and thus to perpetuate it.

And so we come to the traits, the admirable traits. Well what are those? Intelligence well if you know what you're doing is evil and you do it anyways well that's not intelligent. It's not courageous to give in to your basest instincts it's not brave, there's no compassion, or humanity, or empathy. It's not honorable to bludgeon an infant with a tyre iron. It's not decent to put someone in a twenty foot hole and shit and piss on them while they starve to death. There's nothing redeeming about pouring boiling oil into a woman's vagina or sodomizing someone's grandfather or cutting an unborn babe out of a woman and force feeding it to her.

I mean those are real examples but let's move it to the domestic sphere transplant Putin to your workplace. Would you admire the man that cheats and deceives you and makes your workplace a labyrinthine hell of lies? You know evil is only beautiful from afar when it can't touch you and you don't have to look . Well there isn't a soul alive who admired evil from afar that when it reared its hideousness at them that they didn't quake in fear and wish it gone.


I remember from Pulp Fiction Jule's speech at the end:

See, now I'm thinking, maybe it means you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. 9 Millimeter here? He's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or it could mean you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish. Now I'd like that. But that shit ain't the truth. The truth is…you're the weak, and I am the tyranny of evil men.

So I wrote this fairly quickly but I hope it answers your question.

Last edited by bluewpc; 11-20-2016 at 01:01 PM.. Reason: #1 Elaborated in the concluding paragraphs #2 grammar
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
@Mohican ok so I could refer you to the above posts as an answer to your question but I think maybe I can answer it in a different way and you can tell me if I answered your question and if not then I can maybe reformulate my response.

Alright here is the fundamental question at the heart of your question: If we admire evil men does that reflect upon ourselves? Well I say yes it does. And let me say right now I'm the first to admit that evil has its attractions and every person has their affinity towards evil and capacity for it that's just human nature but it serves no purpose. Its purely destructive.

So take a look at putin. He desires power. He has power. He desires wealth. He has wealth. All he can do is seek more of the same. Its unbridled consumption at the expense of people. This is actually very simplistic he has real geopolitical goals mostly the restoration of the soviet union which in my opinion is a monster that never died.

I'm looking for a copy of the speech but unfortunately and not surprisingly the English version has been taken down from the official site:

http://kremlin.ru/events/president/n...12_87086.shtml

Also something interesting I ran into in searching for the speech in English. Do these policy adoptions sound familiar:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4480745.stm

Here is the speech itself. I'll see about getting a translation done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Xlwd91IlY

Now to get back to your question. Well since this is a writing forum let's turn to literature. Let's look at Milton's Satan from Paradise Lost. Well here's an admirable rebel. He's courageous in the face of mortal danger, he's eloquent, he's indomitable, he believes in his cause. But here's his final resolution:

So farwel Hope, and with Hope farwel Fear,
Farwel Remorse: all Good to me is lost;
Evil be thou my good; by thee at least
Divided Empire with Heav'ns King I hold
By thee, and more then half perhaps will reigne;
As Man ere long, and this new World shall know.

He takes his anger out on a people who have nothing to do with his fight. He destroys them knowing full well they're innocent and that it will accomplish nothing. Well the moment he starts acting in such a way that has no outcome well then all his reasons become him as Iago as Coleridge described him: The motive hunting of a motiveless malignity.

And that's the moment he loses or should lose our admiration. Because what he does is resign himself to evil because that's gratifying and liberating and the easy thing to do. Its why so many people surrender to their impulses because the alternative is so much harder. And so to continue admiring that is to admire vapid destruction and extreme self indulgence to the exclusion of all other considerations and to feed that instinct in onself and thus to perpetuate it.

And so we come to the traits, the admirable traits. Well what are those? Intelligence well if you know what you're doing is evil and you do it anyways well that's not intelligent. It's not courageous to give in to your basest instincts it's not brave, there's no compassion, or humanity, or empathy. It's not honorable to bludgeon an infant with a tyre iron. It's not decent to put someone in a twenty foot hole and shit and piss on them while they starve to death. There's nothing redeeming about pouring boiling oil into a woman's vagina or sodomizing someone's grandfather or cutting an unborn babe out of a woman and force feeding it to her.

I mean those are real examples but let's move it to the domestic sphere transplant Putin to your workplace. Would you admire the man that cheats and deceives you and makes your workplace a labyrinthine hell of lies? You know evil is only beautiful from afar when it can't touch you and you don't have to look . Well there isn't a soul alive who admired evil from afar that when it reared its hideousness at them that they didn't quake in fear and wish it gone.


I remember from Pulp Fiction Jule's speech at the end:

See, now I'm thinking, maybe it means you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. 9 Millimeter here? He's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or it could mean you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish. Now I'd like that. But that shit ain't the truth. The truth is…you're the weak, and I am the tyranny of evil men.

So I wrote this fairly quickly but I hope it answers your question.


What if your God has assured you that righteous violence against his enemies, the true evil ones, is not only acceptable but justified, and will still allow you into union with he and the light of heaven(or whatever your term for the eternal afterlife)?
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