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  #31  
Old 09-13-2017, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
It took you 30 minutes to read this???

Well, I can see why you might think we spent a lot of time here...

.


I read slow. Skimming is not an option for me. Plus I had to go back and read the whole thread because I wasn't sure how we got where we got.

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  #32  
Old 09-13-2017, 04:14 PM
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I'm a slow reader too. But maybe I had an advantage because I read it as it evolved.

It doesn't take any more than a few minutes to knock out one of these posts. I supposed if I added it up it might be 30 mins total.

If it's more, so what?

As long as I meet my deadlines, I can fuck around as much as I want -- which is one of the reason I work for myself.
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  #33  
Old 09-13-2017, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
I'm a slow reader too. But maybe I had an advantage because I read it as it evolved.

It doesn't take any more than a few minutes to knock out one of these posts. I supposed if I added it up it might be 30 mins total.

If it's more, so what?

As long as I meet my deadlines, I can fuck around as much as I want -- which is one of the reason I work for myself.


Heh. Yeah. I should have went to college and got a job that doesn't require me to drive 100 miles a day to multiple locations all over the Phoenix metro area.😀
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  #34  
Old 09-13-2017, 04:23 PM
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Yeah, maybe you should have.

Naw -- I'm in a pretty unique position to have this kind of flexibility. Even when I've worked for agencies, I've had a lot of autonomy -- bosses who were mostly laissez faire.

There was a guy on this forum who questioned the time I spent here. I could tell from his level of intelligence and what he said about his job that I could have bought and sold the fucker ten times over.

And he was like -- oh, I bet you work at Trader Joe's...
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  #35  
Old 09-13-2017, 04:32 PM
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Ha ha!

I work at Trader Joe's all the time. And Sprouts and Whole Foods too😀

I think I'd go insane if I had a lot of free time. I'm not built for that. I complain about my job in passing, as a joke, but it is what I was made for. I get bored easily, and it's not good when I do.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:43 PM
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Heh.

Well -- there is nothing wrong with working at Trader Joe's.

This guy was an idiot and a hypocrite -- championing the working man, but when he had to criticize me, that was the biggest insult he could come up with.

But I'm talking about someone who believed in poison contrails and that long red lights were a conspiracy of the oil companies.

When I was first married with a kid on the way and trying to get established, I delivered sandwiches for Jimmy Johns. People were like, oh, what if you knock on a door and it's someone you know? I was like, who gives a shit -- that's their hang up not mine.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:06 PM
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BTW -- I don't have any "free time."

I'm betting as a business owner, you don't either. Not really.

It's just a matter of deciding how much time you can afford to not spend on your business -- servicing clients or going after new ones.

Striking the balance is a very hard thing to learn...

Last edited by Myers; 09-13-2017 at 05:08 PM..
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
BTW -- I don't have any "free time."

I'm betting as a business owner, you don't either. Not really.

It's just a matter of deciding how much time you can afford to not spend on your business -- servicing clients or going after new ones.

Striking the balance is a very hard thing to learn...


When I had six trucks running in the early 2000's I had what people would call 'free time', but yeah, it wasn't really free time. I was always working. I didn't do much actual plumbing but bouncing from job to job, running parts to guys, meeting contractors and homeowners for bids, collecting money from 'late-payers', and all the rest.

It's easier now, because a lot of work can be done from an iPhone.
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  #39  
Old 09-13-2017, 06:08 PM
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There was a time when on some level, I measured success by how many people had working for me. What nonsense!

I spent more time managing people than doing what I do best -- and what I really enjoy.

But the key to my business success?

I don't hire coloreds or Mexicans. I might hire an Asian or a Jew because they work hard and they're good with money, respectively.

I've hired young women if they are very talented, but I know it's a matter of time before they'll want to start squeezing out babies and I'm going to have to give them a bunch of time off.

Old people? Forget about it. They ran out of fresh ideas a long time ago.

Luckily, I hire contract and freelance people. I can selectively bring on clever, young white men -- people just like me -- and I can totally get away with it.

Last edited by Myers; 09-13-2017 at 06:36 PM..
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  #40  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
There was a time when on some level, I measured success by how many people had working for me. What nonsense!

I spent more time managing people than doing what I do best -- and what I really enjoy.

But the key to my business success?

I don't hire coloreds or Mexicans. I might hire an Asian or a Jew because they work hard and they're good with money, respectively.

I've hired young women if they are very talented, but I know it's a matter of time before they'll want to start squeezing out babies and I'm going to have to give them a bunch of time off.

Old people? Forget about it. They ran out of fresh ideas a long time ago.

Luckily, I hire contract and freelance people. I can selectively bring on clever, young white men -- people just like me -- and I can totally get away with it.


When in Rome...
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  #41  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
Indeed.

There are a couple problems with Munroe's kind of thinking. And it mainly comes down to what I was taught as a kid — my mum gave me a little mini bio of Martin Luther King when I was 10. The message is simple, we don’t want special treatment or consideration, we only wish that judgment is based only on one’s actions and the content of one’s character.

Once we start from this principle we cannot find someone guilty by association because of their skin colour, which is exactly what this thinking does. I think the test for whether someone is actually principled or not is whether they can be objective in its application even when it is inconvenient.

So I can’t be judged based on the actions of others, historical or otherwise.

Second problem, judging people by the actions of their state, empire, and suggesting that one cannot have admiration for the good, because it is somehow inextricable from the bad. Think of ANY internationally successful culture/nation. There is none in history which isn’t steeped in racism, violence, atrocity and oppression. Ottoman empire, Imperial China, Islamic conquests, Japanese expansion, Soviet Russia etc etc. By this standard, no one can have pride in ‘their people’, and must only feel shame, should they wish not to contribute towards racism.

Third problem, the standard for racism. You cannot have a standard which says 'racism is not doing anything about racism' unless it's specifically within your job description. I'm not guilty of theft, or supportive of theft if I don't chase down the thief... I'm guilty of theft if I steal shit, and I won't be called a thief otherwise.
You make some very good points, but if a political party and /or the people in power base their platform on hatred towards a group of people, this paradigm becomes a reality for the people who make up the minority group. This can be observed across the whole world against various minority groups, regardless of the specific characteristics of the people in charge. Unfortunately any wishful thinking by the minority group will not lead towards less discrimination, and tragically these "problems" are trivial to solve.

But to look at the issue in a positive light, there will always be the consequences of these actions, they don't ever seem to go away - which is a good thing, as much more reflection and meditation should be required before the people in power declare hatred towards another group of people.
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  #42  
Old 09-14-2017, 03:34 AM
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That is a good point -- and we are definitely seeing that now here in the U.S.
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  #43  
Old 09-20-2017, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Yeah, maybe you should have.

Naw -- I'm in a pretty unique position to have this kind of flexibility. Even when I've worked for agencies, I've had a lot of autonomy -- bosses who were mostly laissez faire.

There was a guy on this forum who questioned the time I spent here. I could tell from his level of intelligence and what he said about his job that I could have bought and sold the fucker ten times over.

And he was like -- oh, I bet you work at Trader Joe's...
that's kinda funny. I spent time on a forum with someone who's screen name was I_AM_AT_MY_JOB. Someone who had a beef with him tracked him his company email and sent a nasty gram, in the hopes of getting I_AM_AT_MY_JOB fired. As it turned out, I-Am ran his own business, and posted the email requesting that he get fired, it was a running joke for a while.

I've worked at LassieFare places, and at nose to the grindstone salt mines where they monitored every ones internet usage.

My newest job is reasonably Lassie Fare, but the work load and pace that I've accepted keeps me very busy from six in the morning until late afternoon. My last job had chunks of work and chunks of down down time .
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  #44  
Old 09-20-2017, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
Yep, I'm gonna throw this one into the mix.

L'oreal model whose employment I believe was based on taking part in a campaign to celebrate diversity within the fashion/beauty world and beyond was sacked for posting the below. It has caused a pretty large uproar in the UK and led to innumerable articles as well as television and radio interviews featuring Monroe debating whether the decision was warranted.

Quote below:

‘Honestly I don’t have energy to talk about the racial violence of white people any more. Yes ALL white people.

‘Because most of ya’ll don’t even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour. Your entire existence is drenched in racism. From micro-aggressions to terrorism, you guys built the blueprint for this s***.

‘Come see me when you realise that racism isn’t learned, it’s inherited and consciously or unconsciously passed down through privilege.

‘Once white people begin to admit that their race is the most violent and oppressive force of nature on Earth… then we can talk.

‘Until then stay acting shocked about how the world continues to stay f***** at the hands of your ancestors and your heads that remain buried in the sand with hands over your ears.’

Now this was said in response I believe to the violence in Charlottesville for any of those who might consider that relevant.

For all the things Whites are supposed to be privileged for, that someone can accuse me of racial violence, without me having to do or say anything, is so unenviable to me that I'd rather be black. I don't know if that has anything to do with me being mixed race, but so is Munroe...

Thoughts?
I don't view this as a smart or courageous stand. As others have noted White people have done some horrendous things to others. A lot of others have to.

Slavery was around a long time before black Africans were brought to the Americas, and some realize that the word Slave comes from Slav- because so many European (and other areas) had slaves from the Slavic regions.

Slavery is still practiced worldwide, and wherever it's practiced is an abomination.

A more courageous shout out would be to denounce slavery in places that it's happening - in all its forms. Name the current practitioners, even if it's not politically correct or safe to do so.
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  #45  
Old 09-21-2017, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
You make some very good points, but if a political party and /or the people in power base their platform on hatred towards a group of people, this paradigm becomes a reality for the people who make up the minority group.
So we're saying that a political party in power has based its platform on hatred towards minorities... in the US? In France? In the UK?

Realistically this kind of party or group is relegated to fringe extremism in modern politics. I need to see some kind of codified discriminatory policies before I can really identify an expressly racist regime. This stuff about maybe enforcing border control doesn't really cut it...

There is something quite sinister I think in labelling the wave of 'populism' in its various forms as a racist or fascist movement. They did the same with Brexit. It's probably just another way for largely rich white men to sully the opposition and gain power for themselves rather than any rigorous political analyses. It's like a tick, just call something racist/homophobic/sexist enough times and the SJW's will take to the streets with their placards.

Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
This can be observed across the whole world against various minority groups, regardless of the specific characteristics of the people in charge. Unfortunately any wishful thinking by the minority group will not lead towards less discrimination, and tragically these "problems" are trivial to solve.
Sure, and that's one of my main points. Racism and discrimination is not monopolised by white people. Imagine, say, that the Trump government were to confiscate black owned businesses. And for these businesses to be given as gifts to various members of the Republican Party. It would necessarily provoke outrage from anyone who was against what was clearly a racist programme. Yet no heart bleeding for white farmers in SA and Zimbabwe...

Again if you're actually principled, then it's the principle, not the colour.

To go further... my other point was that it's not necessarily majority power, or white power, but power in general. Plenty of occasions minorities have ruled the majority. Take Saddam's Iraq.. a Sunni regime which discriminated against the majority Shia population. After the war Shiites took power and the balanced was reversed leading to Sunni led violence and eventually ISIS. All the same race.

In South Africa the majority, blacks, had it bad under Apartheid. But it's not like the regime is now your friend just because a black government is in charge. If the Apartheid government had ordered to shoot a bunch of protesting black miners we'd call it racism... but that was on the ANC's watch, so then we just call it state power doing what it does, which is closer to reality.

My final point is that I am absolutely convinced that equality of opportunity and/or outcome has never been something you can legislate for (that's not to say you can't legislate against it). It's up to people whether they are to remove their prejudices or not. You can't make people interact with each other in whatever way you'd like according to your preferences, all you can do morally is ensure that is no force employed in these interactions.

In short, power is an end in itself, its goal is more power, and it only discriminates based on what it perceives as a threat towards that goal. And you can't legislate love.
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Last edited by JohnConstantine; 09-21-2017 at 01:21 AM..
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  #46  
Old 09-21-2017, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
So we're saying that a political party in power has based its platform on hatred towards minorities... in the US? In France? In the UK?
"Based a platform" would be an overstatement -- but to a large number of Trump supporters -- not all of course -- hatred (or at the very least mistrust and prejudice) toward minorities was part of the appeal. See The Wall and the Muslim ban he talked about during the campaign.
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