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  #61  
Old 03-20-2017, 08:13 PM
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Sigh.��

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Old 03-20-2017, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by moonpunter View Post
Sigh.��
Yep, that is the feeling one gets. But anywho, enough about me, what is your opinion? How do we circumvent this circle of evil? Should we just continue going with the status quo? Should we start sharpening our pitchforks (or resharpening our guillotines)? Should we change our society from an Assad-like dictatorship that requires a "spring" every now and then to a society which has a democratic process (I have read some wonderful things about democratic societies - they have governing bodies, elected, who represent all the people)?

What say you?
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  #63  
Old 05-02-2017, 08:58 AM
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I would think, to circumvent this circle of evil, one would only have to live within their means. No one is obligated to loan you money to buy a house which falsely represents your income. Sure, interest is a burden, but only to those who want more than they can afford.

Fuck the Joneses. Buy what you can afford, and enjoy life, rather than sell yourself into slavery to maintain a pretense.
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Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
I would think, to circumvent this circle of evil, one would only have to live within their means. No one is obligated to loan you money to buy a house which falsely represents your income. Sure, interest is a burden, but only to those who want more than they can afford.

Fuck the Joneses. Buy what you can afford, and enjoy life, rather than sell yourself into slavery to maintain a pretense.
Then most people couldn't afford a house or car which is great if everyone cramped together like the 1890s. 😀
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  #65  
Old 05-02-2017, 10:38 AM
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Not really sure how buying a house automatically qualifies as a "pretense" -- unless it has more space and features etc. than you really need.

Alternatives for me would be to rent something suitable for a family of four, which doesn't make a lot of sense in the long run -- or live in a yurt somewhere off the grid...

P.S. Prodigalson -- I may have misread your post. We might be saying the same thing more or less, if you mean that people shouldn't saddle themselves with house payments they can't afford...

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Old 05-05-2017, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
I would think the ability to pay back the loan (with interest) would be determined more by the circumstances of the debtor than the amount of interest on the loan.

Thus, interest alone would not increase risk, unless the debtor had no business taking on the obligation, anyway.
Eh, kinda. See Credit Card interest.

and with banks, a seemingly small change in interest, on something like a mortgage can make a lot of difference. A lot of people lost their homes in 2008-2009 when "the housing bubble burst" and two or three points made it so people couldn't make their payments. I know of some people who read the tea leaves in 2007 or early 2008 and paid an extra point to get into a fixed loan, or else they would have lost their homes.
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  #67  
Old 05-06-2017, 05:01 AM
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I believe that statistically, you'll probably pay less in interest with a variable rate, but I didn't have the stomach for it...
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
I believe that statistically, you'll probably pay less in interest with a variable rate, but I didn't have the stomach for it...
The last eight or nine years have been great for people on fixed rates.

But you never know when someone will tinker with the rates.


Apropos of nothing, does Yellen remotely rhyme with Felon?
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  #69  
Old 05-14-2017, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by moonpunter View Post
Then most people couldn't afford a house or car which is great if everyone cramped together like the 1890s. 😀
Eh? Are you saying that no one could have a home without taking on more debt than they can afford? I would say that, if homes are unaffordable otherwise, the fact that everyone must take out a loan to own one has driven the price up.

Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Not really sure how buying a house automatically qualifies as a "pretense" -- unless it has more space and features etc. than you really need.

Alternatives for me would be to rent something suitable for a family of four, which doesn't make a lot of sense in the long run -- or live in a yurt somewhere off the grid...

P.S. Prodigalson -- I may have misread your post. We might be saying the same thing more or less, if you mean that people shouldn't saddle themselves with house payments they can't afford...
Yes, the pretense is in buying more house than you can afford, which is only possible through a loan.
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  #70  
Old 05-14-2017, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Yes, the pretense is in buying more house than you can afford, which is only possible through a loan.
But the reality is, if you're living in the real world where houses aren't sold at some theoretical real value, and you want to buy a house, you have to take out a loan.

The key is a loan with payments you can really afford -- not what the bank or anyone else tells you can afford.

If you're saying that taking out a loan to buy a house in general is automatically a pretense -- well, that's just self-righteous nonsense.

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  #71  
Old 05-14-2017, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
...The key is a loan with payments you can really afford -- not what the bank or anyone else tells you can afford.
Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
...Yes, the pretense is in buying more house than you can afford, which is only possible through a loan.
I believe we're saying the same thing.
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Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
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  #72  
Old 05-14-2017, 07:48 AM
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Well, you never know. This is the internet.

I mentioned the yurt before -- once when this came up on another forum, someone actually suggested that we could live in a yurt somewhere off the grid, I don't know -- in Montana or something.

Some guy living with his parents, without a job and a family...

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  #73  
Old 05-14-2017, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Well, you never know. This is the internet.

I mentioned the yurt before -- once when this came up on another forum, someone actually suggested that we could live in a yurt somewhere off the grid, I don't know -- in Montana or something.

Some guy living with his parents, without a job and a family...



No f-ing way my wife would live in a yurt in Montana somewhere and still agree to willing having sex with me.

That's why I have a mortgage.
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  #74  
Old 05-14-2017, 09:50 AM
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Given where my wife was raised, a yurt in Montana would have been a step up -- so no problem.
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  #75  
Old 05-14-2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
No f-ing way my wife would live in a yurt in Montana somewhere and still agree to willing having sex with me.

That's why I have a mortgage.
Borrowing so as to provide a nice enough house to keep you scrogging above your station? Back to the hovels, you presumptuous upstart!

Looking at it that way, I guess credit was invented so every man could be Da Man, at least in appearances. Shaky ground to stand on, but for those for whom it works, a chance to have more stuff, and thus be looked at in a different light than the man who scrimps and saves and buys things when he can pay for them (I believe those are called "poor people", now).
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Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:30 PM
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Yeah -- no one would have looked at our house when we first bought it and thought, that's where Da Man lives.

But it did look a lot more upscale once we took the bars off the windows.
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Borrowing so as to provide a nice enough house to keep you scrogging above your station.


It's worked for 25 years. I figure I'm driving the economy in some way. Right?
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Old 05-14-2017, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
It's worked for 25 years. I figure I'm driving the economy in some way. Right?
Who gives a shit about the economy? It's your personal fiefdom that matters, and for those, like you, who have played the game, it works out well.

I was never able to stay with one thing, whether it be women, houses or jobs, long enough to benefit from long-term stability, but I can see how attractive it would be.
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Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:47 PM
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Much of the economy runs on credit. You think our current president paid for all his real estate out of his own pocket? LOL
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by moonpunter View Post
Much of the economy runs on credit. You think our current president paid for all his real estate out of his own pocket? LOL


Credit is an excellent tool when you have the coming income to back it up.
If not it's a trap. There is a definite line there.

I just bought $31,000 dollars worth of toilets (at a discount because of the volume), paid four guys to install them $3500 for a weeks work, and got a check for $64,000. After misc expenses of $1700, that's almost $30,000 in a week after paying off the loan.

That kind of credit is a tool. That's how the system works. Otherwise, like I said, it can be a trap.
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:35 PM
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Of course. There's a huge difference between using credit as a calculated business descision -- even if there is some risk -- and a consumer taking on too much debt.

"LOL"
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:49 PM
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Sure it'd be nice if people didn't take on more debt than they can handle but there are plenty of shady operators out there who take advantage of people. And sometimes life intervenes, such as if the consumer loses his/her job or gets sick for an extended period of time.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:08 PM
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  #84  
Old 05-14-2017, 08:38 PM
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Probably talking out my ass here, but it seems a person should expect to lose a job or get sick for an extended period of time at least once during the course of a twenty or thirty year loan, and should make sure the loan payment leaves enough income to sock some away for such an event.

If it doesn't, maybe consider a smaller house? It would seem to be better on the kids to grow up with a little less opulence (that's going to touch some nerves), than to endure the humiliation of Dad being foreclosed on because of a few missed paychecks.

But we're all nothing but optimists, expecting to never break a leg, come down with cancer, or be one of the several thousand workers some once-American, but now multi-national corporation has decided to let go in exchange for higher profits.

We see glowing futures, perfect health, and no accidents to slow our ascent to greatness. Supported only by our big toes stuck in the tops of a couple of wine bottles, we pirouette between catastrophes, mindless of how close our clunky footwear comes to the edge of the stage.

It's painful, but oh, the exhilaration of pulling it off, of finishing the dance still on our feet, able to finally pop those bottles off our toes like pulling a cork -- that's the incentive, and all that occurs meanwhile adds up to not one whit, should the goal be attained.

Or something like that, I guess. I dunno; I've never done it.
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Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
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  #85  
Old 05-14-2017, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Probably talking out my ass here, but it seems a person should expect to lose a job or get sick for an extended period of time at least once during the course of a twenty or thirty year loan, and should make sure the loan payment leaves enough income to sock some away for such an event.

If it doesn't, maybe consider a smaller house? It would seem to be better on the kids to grow up with a little less opulence (that's going to touch some nerves), than to endure the humiliation of Dad being foreclosed on because of a few missed paychecks.

But we're all nothing but optimists, expecting to never break a leg, come down with cancer, or be one of the several thousand workers some once-American, but now multi-national corporation has decided to let go in exchange for higher profits.

We see glowing futures, perfect health, and no accidents to slow our ascent to greatness. Supported only by our big toes stuck in the tops of a couple of wine bottles, we pirouette between catastrophes, mindless of how close our clunky footwear comes to the edge of the stage.

It's painful, but oh, the exhilaration of pulling it off, of finishing the dance still on our feet, able to finally pop those bottles off our toes like pulling a cork -- that's the incentive, and all that occurs meanwhile adds up to not one whit, should the goal be attained.

Or something like that, I guess. I dunno; I've never done it.


That's not talking out your ass... its called managing your finances. I was never really good at it, but luckily I met some woman that was. Okay, mostly I think she's too cautious, and she thinks I go off half-cocked on anything that moves and smells like money. By some stroke of luck we make a good team, although to me it seems like I just need to push and make more money than we can possibly spend. Then one day I wake up and we have all this insurance and stocks and savings and a rainy day fund and I'm like: where did this come from?
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  #86  
Old 05-14-2017, 09:48 PM
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...and I just depend on my good deeds coming back to me in spades, like that fortune teller told me they would, oh those many years ago.

Good thing I learned to live poor, a long time ago.
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Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
...and I just depend on my good deeds coming back to me in spades, like that fortune teller told me they would, oh those many years ago.

Good thing I learned to live poor, a long time ago.


If I hadn't bumped into my wife I'd be on my way up there to crash on your couch.
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Old 05-15-2017, 03:54 AM
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I've got the winning lottery ticket right here in my pocket!!!
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Old 05-15-2017, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by moonpunter View Post
Sure it'd be nice if people didn't take on more debt than they can handle but there are plenty of shady operators out there who take advantage of people. And sometimes life intervenes, such as if the consumer loses his/her job or gets sick for an extended period of time.
I don't have any statistics, but I strongly suspect that most people who get in over their heads on home loans aren't victims of predatory lenders -- understating that practically every lender will push you to borrow what you can afford under ideal circumstances, including some expectation that your income will increase over the years.

In that case, any potential home buyer who has bothered to do the research and math should know not to take a lenders word for it. So in a lot of cases, that you think you can afford that bigger house, with the walk-in closets and big bathrooms with double sinks and a bonus room etc. amounts to buying on a wing and prayer. Who's fault is that in the end -- the lender? I don't think so.

Of course, you can't prepare for every contingency, but you can plan and take reasonable precautions. It's amazing how many people don't even have disability insurance.

But even people who have hit hard times through no fault of their own find themselves in a much worse position because of credit card debt. It's true that out of desperation, people compound or add to that debt just to pay for the basic necessities -- but there is often a whole pattern of behavior that leads to massive debt preceding that, including buying a lot of shit they could have done without.

So while buying stuff you can't really afford -- including a house -- may not be the whole story -- it's often a very big part of getting into serious financial trouble.

What would be "nice" is if people would lower their expectations, live within their means and curb their desires for instant gratification. Hard to do sometimes when you are bombarded with messages on all fronts telling you to do otherwise, but ultimately, it is the responsibility of the consumer.

And just a suggestion -- you may want to think about things a bit more before tacking that "LOL" onto your comments. It usually has an effect that is the opposite of what you intended.

Last edited by Myers; 05-15-2017 at 08:02 AM..
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Old 05-15-2017, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
If I hadn't bumped into my wife I'd be on my way up there to crash on your couch.
It really does help if you're part of a team. Like you said, somehow we compliment each other. I'm more of the big picture, she's more day to day, although there is plenty of crossover.

Mainly, we just put a check on each other. Honestly, I can' think of thing I've bought for over $50 that I haven't run it past my wife -- and she does the same. We started when when we really did have to watch every penny -- but we still do it.

I can't imagine being married to someone who isn't on the same page. My brother makes a whole lot of money, but his wife can't stop spending it. That would drive me insane.
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