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Disparity in outcome

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  #61  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
My wife's extended family and most of the community is poor and/or working class. They have just enough to get by and still have a few creature comforts, like cable and internet. And a lot of them get their "checks."

It's hard to explain, but despite their knowledge of and limited exposure to affluence or even their local version of it, it's like they can't conceive a path or way out of poverty -- even if it means just getting a high school diploma. Never mind the bootstraps. What's odd is that the mindset isn't really multi-generational. A lot of their grandparents had working farms or decent paying mill jobs. Could be that there isn't a history of valuing education -- there wasn't a need for it.

These aren't the people who aren't going to rise up -- unless maybe the checks stop coming. (And no surprise -- most of them voted for Trump.) But I suppose over time, as the middle class shrinks and more join the ranks of the poor and working poor, this scenario might be somewhat more plausible.

But my guess is, the catalyst would have to be some kind of economic disaster -- that people would have to literally be starving. As it is, there is just too much complacency, distraction -- and false hope that somehow things will be fixed. So I think revolution is a long, long way off.

P.S. The thing that annoys me to no end about the bootstraps thing is the usual context. I know people who grew up in the suburbs with every possible advantage who could look at you strait faced and tell you how they started out with nothing and no one ever handed them anything etc. etc. -- so why can't "they..."
This is an interesting post.

It's hard to explain, but despite their knowledge of and limited exposure to affluence or even their local version of it, it's like they can't conceive a path or way out of poverty -- even if it means just getting a high school diploma. .... What's odd is that the mindset isn't really multi-generational. A lot of their grandparents had working farms or decent paying mill jobs.


What if the last 100 years of hyperindustrialization was just an anomaly? Especially the time segment of Post WWII to about 2000.

It might be hard for a person that has had the opportunity to see a lot of the world to relate to someone, even a relative, that has little interest in world outside of his little county or parish.

These aren't the people who aren't going to rise up -- unless maybe the checks stop coming. (And no surprise -- most of them voted for Trump.) But I suppose over time, as the middle class shrinks and more join the ranks of the poor and working poor, this scenario might be somewhat more plausible.

But my guess is, the catalyst would have to be some kind of economic disaster -- that people would have to literally be starving. As it is, there is just too much complacency, distraction -- and false hope that somehow things will be fixed. So I think revolution is a long, long way off.
I see two possible paths if our elected leaders continue on this path (hey, did you know that Fed.gov set a record for monthly spending in June 2017 $428,894,000,000, http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...00b-first-time)

Path one: Continued slow slide (do you know the recipe for boiled frog) and lessening middle class, more stratification of rich and poor.

Path two: Fast economic crash with results resembling The Walking Dead.

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  #62  
Old 07-14-2017, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
People settle at the level that they feel they belong to.

If you think your life doesn't have you pegged at the right station - you keep climbing.

Conversely, some sink until they're off of society's radar. They become invisible.

There are interesting studies on lottery winners - the one's who couldn't perceive themselves as wealthy and happy squandered the money rapidly to resume their natural and comfortable state of poverty. (No amount of financial counselling changed the pattern.)

Without deliberately sounding negative or trying to piss on John's bonfire, I can not see that there is any cure for the World's disparity. We just sink, rise or float at the level of our subconscious choosing.

The gospel according to Grace. Amen x
Who is this "we?"

Last Saturday I helped deliver some donated furniture and household stuff to a young woman and her child.

She was very happy to tell me that she was going to get another one of her kids back out of the foster system. But it turns out that she was hoping to get back two more children out of the system.

She's maybe 25 at most and off drugs for 6 months -- which is not very long. I look at where she's living and the surrounding area and evaluate her chances of staying clean -- and i know there's a good chance these kids are doomed to repeat the cycle.

So at what point do those kids subconsciously choose not to succeed? And the "World's disparity" aside -- how can we just give up and say -- yeah, I guess they're just not going to "float..."

I have seen that it doesn't take as much as you would think -- cases where kids just needed some mentoring and guidance and even good nutrition and something constructive to do with their time.

So yeah -- I don't think it's impossible...
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:20 PM
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I think there will always be people in therapy - or in need of it.

Counselling or therapy doesn't erase experience - it interprets it at best.

If you have a father that takes a belt to you and says you were never wanted and you'll "never amount to nothing", the scars run deep.

As I've already said - some people overcome the odds. Others can't.

Toxic parenting is in affluent homes as much as poor. Doesn't matter if your Dad's a bar fly or a barrister - he can still make you feel as if you're nothing.

Schools are hot on reading the signs - there is so much in place to stop these kids slipping through the net.

But there will always be damaged adults who are held back by personal barriers we can't see.

I never made any suggestion we shouldn't try and solve problems but regardless, I think there will always be cream rising to the top and sediment gravitating to the bottom.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:06 PM
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None of what I've said has anything to do with therapy.

And I'm not talking about toxic parenting -- it's about people who have NO frame of reference for good parenting.

The average bar fly or barrister who's a lousy parent -- is it a good bet their kid is going to wind up doing serious time for selling drugs or having 4 kids she can't take care of by the time she's 25?

I'm guessing probably not. I'm talking about a whole different world.

Last edited by Myers; 07-14-2017 at 05:11 PM..
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
So is Lewis Hamilton the only black person 'given a chance' or, the only black person good enough? -- that's the question.

My inclination goes for the latter -- because F1 teams are rational business and profit minded people whose goal is to find the best drivers in the world to win as many championships as possible.

Now you might say, well in order to train as an F1 driver you're going to have to have a certain degree of capital behind you to pay for all the equipment, lessons, time on the track etc etc. Then because there is a differential in wealth between races this puts white people at an advantage when it comes to producing competent drivers.

But that's not discriminatory. F1 isn't consciously excluding black people, it just implicitly excludes people whose income or capacity to invest isn't at a certain level. Is there any kind of moral cause to do anything about that? Is there a moral basis for affirmative action (which in this scenario would presumably take a form of F1 scholarships to low income individuals... how you determine whether these individuals have promise as drivers would be very tricky I imagine), do we need to run around accosting people for 'unconscious bias'?
Aren't you contradicting yourself though? Say if a person sorted a packet of Christmas special MMs and gave a bag of 100 green and one red MM to another person and this other person fished around randomly and pulled out several green ones, this doesn't mean that the green ones are the tastier lolly. And it does not mean that the "eater" likes green over red ones, but it definitely demonstrates a system sorting bias towards the green ones.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
Aren't you contradicting yourself though? Say if a person sorted a packet of Christmas special MMs and gave a bag of 100 green and one red MM to another person and this other person fished around randomly and pulled out several green ones, this doesn't mean that the green ones are the tastier lolly. And it does not mean that the "eater" likes green over red ones, but it definitely demonstrates a system sorting bias towards the green ones.
Colour isn't relevant. We're talking about talent. If the green one is the most talented MM I'm picking that one over all the reds.

It's the initial investment which is exclusive. But if I have a million dollars to invest in real estate and you don't, that prevents you from entering into property investment on the scale that I can. It doesn't mean that estate agents hate you.

Here's another thought, say over the next couple generations nobody marries within their own race... would this generate a more equal society by default?

And if so... what's up with Brazil?
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  #67  
Old 07-15-2017, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
Colour isn't relevant. We're talking about talent. If the green one is the most talented MM I'm picking that one over all the reds.

It's the initial investment which is exclusive. But if I have a million dollars to invest in real estate and you don't, that prevents you from entering into property investment on the scale that I can. It doesn't mean that estate agents hate you.

Here's another thought, say over the next couple generations nobody marries within their own race... would this generate a more equal society by default?

And if so... what's up with Brazil?
I don't think you're picking up what I'm putting down, there is no biological basis for grouping and the grouping is only a societal and cultural construct. The MMs represent this sorting (an artificial sorting) which leads to the biased result, as you state, you having one million dollars is at the post-sorting stage, I would already be at a disadvantage purely due to a societal construct which does not equate to anything based on my ability to buy realestate.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:34 PM
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[QUOTE=brianpatrick

Eventually, the masses of poor and working class will rise up and take the prize at the top with pitchforks if need be.

[/QUOTE]


Does this sort of logic indicate the North Korean population is okay with the way things are for them.
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Pierce View Post
Does this sort of logic indicate the North Korean population is okay with the way things are for them.


Yes, they love their strong and benevolent leader. He is a god!
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Old 07-16-2017, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post

It might be hard for a person that has had the opportunity to see a lot of the world to relate to someone, even a relative, that has little interest in world outside of his little county or parish.
It's somewhat hard for me to relate, although I sympathize. My wife totally relates -- although it's frustrating for her, especially when they treat her badly just because she felt like she had to leave.

But you're right -- she also had an opportunity to see the outside world and get some mentoring.

Her dad died when she was nine and her mother shipped her off to her uncle's in St. Louis. He'd joined the army and then went on to start his own successful commercial landscaping business. She stayed with them for a couple of years before her mom sent for her. (That was a disaster -- her mom was not fit to parent -- but that's a whole different story.)

When she was 14, she got a job at horse farm -- the lady who owned it really took an interest in her, helped her with school work, fed her properly, gave her clothes and later helped her apply for scholarships etc. Even drove her to look at universities.

At school she got more attention than most of the kids because of her looks and athletic ability -- but it was pretty awful otherwise.

She also has a cousin who was in the marines, he came back and started a business contracting to lumber companies maintaining commercial forests. He's also just started experimenting with organic farming -- he plans on selling produce to restaurants in Atlanta.

Some of these people are ignorant, but they aren't stupid. But in the end, it takes exposure to something different and some real mentoring before they can begin to pull on those bootstraps -- I think it's rarely something that happens spontaneously.

Last edited by Myers; 07-16-2017 at 05:59 AM..
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Who is this "we?"

Last Saturday I helped deliver some donated furniture and household stuff to a young woman and her child.

She was very happy to tell me that she was going to get another one of her kids back out of the foster system. But it turns out that she was hoping to get back two more children out of the system.

She's maybe 25 at most and off drugs for 6 months -- which is not very long. I look at where she's living and the surrounding area and evaluate her chances of staying clean -- and i know there's a good chance these kids are doomed to repeat the cycle.

So at what point do those kids subconsciously choose not to succeed? And the "World's disparity" aside -- how can we just give up and say -- yeah, I guess they're just not going to "float..."

I have seen that it doesn't take as much as you would think -- cases where kids just needed some mentoring and guidance and even good nutrition and something constructive to do with their time.

So yeah -- I don't think it's impossible...
So yes, who is this "we"? Is it "we", as a society, or "we" as individuals? I say that we as a society owe it to no one to make sure they succeed, but we as individuals have a responsibility to society to help in any way we can, one on one, as in the example above with the lady with the horse farm, or one with many, as in coaching a Little League team.

The thing is, it's the "one" that's important, the "one" being ourselves. We can, individually, affect great changes in individual peoples' lives, not because we owe it to them, but because we want to see them succeed.

There may also be a selfish, egotistical component there, in the knowledge that, if they do well, it was because of you.

My point being, when more people get involved, that one-on-one focus gets lost. An individual taking an interest in another individual, helping them with school work or batting, giving them rides to job interviews or schools, making sure they eat properly, will have a much greater effect than a government agency giving out bus passes and food stamps.

It's all well and good to look around and think legislation or a government program will cure the ills we see, but it's we as individuals that have the power to change peoples' lives. When we try to institutionalise our good intentions, the focus gets a little fuzzy, and the objective is lost.

So no, "we" as a society owe it to no one to make sure they get what others have, but "we" as individuals are free to help in any way we can, and when we do, and succeed, society as a whole benefits.

Society owes no one anything.

We owe it to society the make the best of everything.
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  #72  
Old 07-16-2017, 12:14 PM
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I don't think it's an either/or thing.

As a society, we've made mistakes -- throwing money at programs that simply don't work that end up doing more harm than good in the long run.

But I think we could do better.

We've made attempts to establish decent quality child care and early education programs. Some work -- some don't.

There's also pretty good evidence that after school programs really do work to improve academic achievement and keep kids out of trouble -- depending on the specific program.

There are charter school programs that are working in poor neighborhoods -- but they're not all the same and some do under perform.

There are partially government funded mentoring and training programs that have shown success.

There are also very specific housing programs that work -- that have nothing to do with the failed public housing programs of the past.

And sometimes mixed solutions work, when the government partners with corporations and individuals to get things done.

We could do more -- I just think people keep pointing to failed programs of the past instead of expanding on what works or trying new things -- and there's too much politics involved. Whether or not programs are effective requires looking at all the evidence and not just the talking points cited by partisans on one side or the other.

Clearly, individuals aren't doing enough. You can say society owes no one anything -- but we all end up paying sooner or later...

Last edited by Myers; 07-16-2017 at 12:20 PM..
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:48 PM
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[QUOTE=Myers

Clearly, individuals aren't doing enough.

[/QUOTE]

Today, at the range, I looked through the window and saw a shooter with her support hand thumb across the back of the semi-auto she was firing.

I went in and showed her the appropriate position for the thumb (this is a safety aspect, folks) and let 'er rip.

Then I saw a slight posture upgrade opportunity (think lean forward) and stepped away.

Later, before she left, she thanked me for the advice and said her accuracy improved.

Enough?
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Pierce View Post
Today, at the range, I looked through the window and saw a shooter with her support hand thumb across the back of the semi-auto she was firing.



I went in and showed her the appropriate position for the thumb (this is a safety aspect, folks) and let 'er rip.



Then I saw a slight posture upgrade opportunity (think lean forward) and stepped away.



Later, before she left, she thanked me for the advice and said her accuracy improved.



Enough?


Yes. When the poor and disenfranchised become zombie mobs this will be very helpful.
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Pierce View Post
Today, at the range, I looked through the window and saw a shooter with her support hand thumb across the back of the semi-auto she was firing.

I went in and showed her the appropriate position for the thumb (this is a safety aspect, folks) and let 'er rip.

Then I saw a slight posture upgrade opportunity (think lean forward) and stepped away.

Later, before she left, she thanked me for the advice and said her accuracy improved.

Enough?
And maybe I could help you learn to use the quote feature properly.

Would that be enough?
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Old 07-16-2017, 04:30 PM
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Here's an interesting question, say if a group of people in a position of wealth, power and privilege in society, believe they have, for example, natural talents, which exceed those of other folk, why not then ensure a number of positions for the weaker groups? The group with natural ability should easily be able to regain their status.
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Old 07-16-2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
And maybe I could help you learn to use the quote feature properly.

Would that be enough?
Nope. Not nearly the amount of assistance I could benefit from.

But it would be an appreciated start.
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Old 07-16-2017, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
Here's an interesting question, say if a group of people in a position of wealth, power and privilege in society, believe they have, for example, natural talents, which exceed those of other folk, why not then ensure a number of positions for the weaker groups? The group with natural ability should easily be able to regain their status.
Yeah.
That would make things great for everybody.
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Old 07-16-2017, 05:40 PM
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[QUOTE=Myers

Clearly, individuals aren't doing enough.

[/QUOTE]

Nick, above is how the quotes appear in you posts.

What's missing is the semi-colon, member id number and close bracket next to the user name.

It should look like this:

[QUOTE=Nick Pierce;734617]

I'm not sure how you're doing it, but you're deleting those things at some point after you hit the quote button.

Last edited by Myers; 07-16-2017 at 05:43 PM..
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Old 07-16-2017, 05:53 PM
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[QUOTE=Myers;734619]Nick, above is how the quotes appear in you posts.

What's missing is the semi-colon, member id number and close bracket next to the user name.

It should look like this:

Originally Posted by Nick Pierce View Post

I'm not sure how you're doing it, but you're deleting those things at some point after you hit the quote button.

Oh, that's what you are referring to. I just backspace everything out I ain't lookin' to quote.

Uh, why is that stuff of value?
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Old 07-16-2017, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Pierce View Post
Yeah.
That would make things great for everybody.
You know what would really happen though, is that the people who once had status will transfer their status and then come to the realisation that all this time they were just dumb shits like they used to call everybody else, and the people who didn't have status and gain status would then run around like a pack of self-entitled dickwads stating how much better than they are and how they as a group are better people than everyone else.
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Old 07-16-2017, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Yes. When the poor and disenfranchised become zombie mobs this will be very helpful.
There were also two tourists, a New Zealander and a Venezuelan, that came in (at different times) and rented a Glock 19.

Upon hearing they had no handgun experience I made my meager talents of pistol operation available (yep, more of that range safety stuff) to them.


The Aucklander won't have much use for the knowledge back home. There you can still knock a guy out for messin' with ya without gettin' automatically charged with A&B.

The Venezuelan ... they might run short on pitchforks if the current ruler denies democratic process validity.

Of course there is always the British technique for deflecting naked physical aggression.

Oh, you don't know it?
A Londoner told me of it when he was renting a ... I think you can fill in the blank.


The common man's resort on the island when assaulted is to respond with, and he said this deadpan, harsh language.


But enough of my day.

I'm interested in reading how other folks did what they could to help others in their endeavors on a fine Sunday afternoon.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:33 AM
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Nick -- you did it!

Kudos and huzzah!
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Nick -- you did it!

Kudos and huzzah!

"Ask, and it shall be given you"
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
I don't think you're picking up what I'm putting down, there is no biological basis for grouping and the grouping is only a societal and cultural construct. The MMs represent this sorting (an artificial sorting) which leads to the biased result, as you state, you having one million dollars is at the post-sorting stage, I would already be at a disadvantage purely due to a societal construct which does not equate to anything based on my ability to buy realestate.
No I'm not sure I am picking it up.

But here's where I'm at.

I'm arguing that for F1 teams all the MM's might as well be the same colour. They make their selection based on talent.

What prevents the kid from the Indian slum from buying a house is money. What prevents him from entering into F1 is money and talent. Neither of these things have to do with biology. But, you'll have people say that F1 must be inherently racist because of its lack of diversity... so long as we agree that this is false we're all good. Otherwise it might require further unpacking.
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Old 07-20-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
No I'm not sure I am picking it up.

But here's where I'm at.

I'm arguing that for F1 teams all the MM's might as well be the same colour. They make their selection based on talent.

What prevents the kid from the Indian slum from buying a house is money. What prevents him from entering into F1 is money and talent. Neither of these things have to do with biology. But, you'll have people say that F1 must be inherently racist because of its lack of diversity... so long as we agree that this is false we're all good. Otherwise it might require further unpacking.
I'm in the understanding of what you are stating with regards to biology now, and if that is off the table with regards to grouping, then yes all cool.

But what I am stating is the discrimination process has (mostly*) happened prior to the F1 picking their drivers, but it is probably easier to discuss this within an industry with a lot more statistics rather than F1.

In STEM areas women and men are at a ratio of 1 to 1 up until early career but then at a professorial or top-level STEM industry position this is not the same ratio. This is what I am stating, the early career, PhD and undergraduate numbers demonstrate that the ability of women in these areas are very similar to men, and indeed the relative absence of women in these areas at the top level demonstrate (prove even) that we do not have the most talented people at the top of these industries. If we did, the ratio would unequivocally be 1:1 (alternatively this means that we have a population of "less-talented" men in these positions that could be better filled by "more-talented" women)**.

If we can agree that there is no biological basis to this disparity of outcome, and we can agree that there is no talent basis to this disparity of outcome, we are only left with a societal/cultural construct of some kind that is impeding women from getting these positions. Unfortunately, for women, one factor (there may be a multitude of other factors) is some people believe that women (in comparison to men) do not have the capacity or talent to succeed in these areas and therefore one factor leading to this outcome is sexism.

Another major factor is how society is structured, and it is definitely not structured in a manner that promotes equal opportunity, fortunately for humanity, millions of past and present thinkers have come up with a multitude of ways as to how a society can be created which is transparent, fairer and humane, and the solution to this problem will take all of 0.00001 seconds of thought from a child familiar with Sesame Street, unfortunately for humanity when any of these ideas are applied to this structure all that is achieved is the reshuffling of assholes at the top.

*Some drivers in formula one pay for their drive through sponsorship
** For example in F1 if we can demonstrate that people of one culturally and societally constructed group and people of another culturally and societally constructed group have exactly the same driving talent yet we also do not get a 1:1 ratio that F1 unequivocally does not have the most talented drivers
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
I'm in the understanding of what you are stating with regards to biology now, and if that is off the table with regards to grouping, then yes all cool.



But what I am stating is the discrimination process has (mostly*) happened prior to the F1 picking their drivers, but it is probably easier to discuss this within an industry with a lot more statistics rather than F1.



In STEM areas women and men are at a ratio of 1 to 1 up until early career but then at a professorial or top-level STEM industry position this is not the same ratio. This is what I am stating, the early career, PhD and undergraduate numbers demonstrate that the ability of women in these areas are very similar to men, and indeed the relative absence of women in these areas at the top level demonstrate (prove even) that we do not have the most talented people at the top of these industries. If we did, the ratio would unequivocally be 1:1 (alternatively this means that we have a population of "less-talented" men in these positions that could be better filled by "more-talented" women)**.



If we can agree that there is no biological basis to this disparity of outcome, and we can agree that there is no talent basis to this disparity of outcome, we are only left with a societal/cultural construct of some kind that is impeding women from getting these positions. Unfortunately, for women, one factor (there may be a multitude of other factors) is some people believe that women (in comparison to men) do not have the capacity or talent to succeed in these areas and therefore one factor leading to this outcome is sexism.



Another major factor is how society is structured, and it is definitely not structured in a manner that promotes equal opportunity, fortunately for humanity, millions of past and present thinkers have come up with a multitude of ways as to how a society can be created which is transparent, fairer and humane, and the solution to this problem will take all of 0.00001 seconds of thought from a child familiar with Sesame Street, unfortunately for humanity when any of these ideas are applied to this structure all that is achieved is the reshuffling of assholes at the top.



*Some drivers in formula one pay for their drive through sponsorship

** For example in F1 if we can demonstrate that people of one culturally and societally constructed group and people of another culturally and societally constructed group have exactly the same driving talent yet we also do not get a 1:1 ratio that F1 unequivocally does not have the most talented drivers


I think one would have to account for the fact that only women can give birth (in your STEM conclusion). Lots of women choose to delay, sidetrack, or give up higher positions in STEM and other fields to raise children. So when we're looking just at stats it's hard to tell, but sexism wouldn't be the only reason.

That's not to say there isn't sexism, there is, but I question the degree to which it produces the statistics.
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I think one would have to account for the fact that only women can give birth (in your STEM conclusion). Lots of women choose to delay, sidetrack, or give up higher positions in STEM and other fields to raise children. So when we're looking just at stats it's hard to tell, but sexism wouldn't be the only reason.

That's not to say there isn't sexism, there is, but I question the degree to which it produces the statistics.
Not entirely true but also, to be fair, not entirely untrue, for example, if the same women (with similar capabilities and talents as the most preeminent and Nobel-prize awarded academics in the world) wanted jobs as cleaners, receptionists, nurses, in aged-care, childcare, teaching etc suddenly the world opens up to them. But to be fair to your response, I was arguing from a how the world should be rather than how the world is stance.
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Old 07-20-2017, 09:55 PM
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Aspergers is also five times more common in men than women. Another stat which could explain some of the disparity in STEM jobs.
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Old 07-20-2017, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Aspergers is also five times more common in men than women. Another stat which could explain some of the disparity in STEM jobs.
Perhaps, but it does not account for the non-disparity at the undergraduate, PhD and early career level, nor the relatively high unemployment rate of individuals in the Autistic spectrum
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