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The Rise of the West

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Old 05-26-2017, 10:10 AM
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Default The Rise of the West


The West - as I'll define it for this discussion is "Western Europe" and 'Murrica (With a side of Canadian hosers thrown in, eh?)

I'll borrow a few lines from Pat Buchanan's Piece "After The Confederacy-Who's Next?"

http://www.theamericanconservative.c...tes-whos-next/

What they blindly refuse to see is that while its sins are scarlet, as are those of all civilizations, it is the achievements of the West that are unrivaled. The West ended slavery.Christianity and the West gave birth to the idea of inalienable human rights.




As scholar Charles Murray has written, 97 percent of the world’s most significant figures and 97 percent of the world’s greatest achievements in the arts, architecture, literature, astronomy, biology, earth sciences, physics, medicine, mathematics and technology came from the West.
I was in a honest to goodness campfire discussion, and one topic was about how Christianity (and the Catholic Church) propelled what was to become the west.

A friend noted that it was Christian beliefs, with attendant self discipline brought a discipline, and one thing in particular Christianity did that raised the bar.

Wherever possible, The Church stamped out incest and cousin marriage. The rise of average intelligence became noticeable within three generations. A more intelligent population started to look beyond their little duchies. Also, as people traveled for pilgrimages or missions they spread ideas faster than what would have occurred otherwise.

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Old 05-26-2017, 12:28 PM
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Distorted Christianity also stamped out millions of natives on both North America and South America. I wouldn't associate that era with the teachings of Jesus ... and the beat goes on even today. Not only Christianity but all major religions need adjustments. They mostly talk love, but what they really mean is love for money.

As one native told a Black Robe: "You talk about the Great Spirit, but we talk to Him."
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Old 05-26-2017, 12:58 PM
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For a second there I thought I might have accidentally stumbled on to aryannations.com
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:12 PM
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The church was the seat of power, money and authority and education. It's a no brainer that some positive things came out of that. The enlightenment came about as a result of conditions that can be tied indirectly to the church and ideas about God -- but that's the extent of it. Attributing all those advancements to Christianity specifically -- which is what you're trying to do, is pretty silly.

Last edited by Myers; 05-27-2017 at 04:28 AM..
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:20 PM
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Furthermore, at this point we should know better.

If we must rely on the belief of a mythical eternal damnation in order to behave ourselves, then perhaps we don't deserve to exist as a species.
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Old 05-26-2017, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Furthermore, at this point we should know better.

If we must rely on the belief of a mythical eternal damnation in order to behave ourselves, then perhaps we don't deserve to exist as a species.
You need to start learning how to speak only for yourself (another one with the "we"). Your arrogance could make a gorilla cringe. Nobody is telling you to rely on anything. You have free will and also the right to believe whatever it is you want.

Jesus never sent out his disciples to hang mothers from tree branches and then hang their babies from their ankles. In fact, ten of the eleven disciples never returned. And that's no myth.
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:02 PM
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I'm talking about "we" in the collective sense -- as a society. That's the context of the OP.

But it's about the basis of Christianity -- the notion that human beings will be rewarded or damned based on accepting Jesus as thier savior and adhering to certain rules as proscribed by the bible.

There's nothing arrogant about acknowledging that and simply saying I don't buy it.

Sorry -- but it's all a myth to me. If you need to believe it -- fine. Knock yourself out.

Last edited by Myers; 05-26-2017 at 05:10 PM..
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:16 PM
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Look -- you're confused about what I'm saying -- and you're looking at this as an opportunity to proselytize and confirm your own beliefs as opposed to looking at how Christianity and the church have impacted history and society etc.

In other words, I'm not interested in your bullshit.

Last edited by Myers; 05-26-2017 at 08:37 PM..
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:34 AM
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With merely an opinion, it makes no sense to smear the faith of more than a billion people you don't even know. I don't buy into people trying to turn their opinions into facts. Christianity is a religion based upon faith. If you are without faith, you aren't going to buy into it--naturally.

Last edited by Cityboy; 05-27-2017 at 02:41 AM..
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Old 05-27-2017, 03:19 AM
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I'm not smearing anyone. I haven't said a single thing that disparages Christians as human beings. If their faith helps them in some way or makes them better people, that's just fine.

Otherwise, what I think about Christianity and religion and God in general may upset some people or hurt their feelings, but that's not my problem.
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Old 05-27-2017, 05:11 AM
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Nobody's feelings are hurt (at least, mine aren't). Your problem is trying to turn your opinions into facts. But, no need to worry. You have company--a whole lot of it.
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Old 05-27-2017, 05:38 AM
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Ah, going right for Aryan Nations default, with Cityboy going for the reliable "Duh UrPeons kiiled the natives, let's feel our guilt....

Nothing about how Charles Murray (a very smart guy) derived his figures, nothing about how Europe went from a period of stagnation to an explosion of learning and discovery.

And did Christianity, and largely through one of it's major vassels (the Roman Catholic Church) contribute to any of this.

But I expected this.....
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Old 05-27-2017, 05:39 AM
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Cityboy -- Of course, everything I have said here is my opinion.

It is my opinion that the biblical or historical Jesus did not exist. That opinion is based on what I think is a lack of credible evidence -- and therefore I view Christianity as a myth.

I haven't claimed that any of it is "fact." That's all you.
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Old 05-27-2017, 05:56 AM
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I as much as said Christianity or the church contributed to the rise of western civilization. They kept the flame of learning alive -- that allowed for the enlightenment and eventually, scientific advancement, although the church selectively hindered that too.

What interests me more is the mindset -- and why some people need to feel part of something they that think is superior. I suspect it's so they can feel better about themselves without having to do or accomplish anything beyond claiming some heritage or believing something their parents believed or in whatever belief is prevalent.

In other words, that they can position themselves above other people or claim superiority is due to an accident of birth. The thing is, it doesn't automatically make you special beyond how you behave and conduct yourself among your fellow human beings. A person can somehow be associated with western civilization and still be jerk.

We are where we are because of the collective advancements of human beings over the millennia. The center of those advancements has shifted over the course of human development. The advancement of western civilization is simply the most recent part of that -- due to a lot of influences and accidents of history.

So why the need to single it out as something superior? Because you can glom on to it by virtue of luck?

Hurray for Christianity and western civilization! Go team! Let's all sit around the campfire and high five each other.

Last edited by Myers; 05-27-2017 at 06:46 AM..
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Old 05-27-2017, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Ah, going right for Aryan Nations default, with Cityboy going for the reliable "Duh UrPeons kiiled the natives, let's feel our guilt....

Nothing about how Charles Murray (a very smart guy) derived his figures, nothing about how Europe went from a period of stagnation to an explosion of learning and discovery.

And did Christianity, and largely through one of it's major vassels (the Roman Catholic Church) contribute to any of this.

But I expected this.....
Hitler's false opinions had tens of millions killed for no reason. Sometimes, it's best to keep opinions to oneself. One never knows when they might be false.

Distorted viewpoints about Christianity brought nothing but slaughter and suffering to inhabitants of both North America and South America. Jesus dispatched His disciples to preach the Good News and to heal the sick. He didn't tell them to enslave the masses and take every thing they own. For a good reason, Gandhi said: "I like your Christ; I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Let's be clear--the quote was aimed at those trying to shackle his people. Not all Christians believe in abusing people. But, if you haven't noticed, a lot do.
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Old 05-27-2017, 06:30 AM
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Furthermore, if you're a Christian with his finger on the trigger, then you're not a Christian at all (at least not one from Jesus's tribe). We are at this very confusing point in time mainly because of the distortion of both Christianity and Islam. Two wrongs don't make a right, and more suffering doesn't bring comfort. Who knows, maybe all his hatred began from someone spreading false opinions and the gullible digesting them as facts.
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Old 05-27-2017, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
I as much as said Christianity or the church contributed to the rise of western civilization. They kept the flame of learning alive -- that allowed for the enlightenment and eventually, scientific advancement, although the church selectively hindered that too.

What interests me more is the mindset -- and why some people need to feel part of something they that think is superior. I suspect it's so they can feel better about themselves without having to do or accomplish anything beyond claiming some heritage or believing something their parents believed or in whatever belief is prevalent.

In other words, that they can position themselves above other people or claim superiority is due to an accident of birth. The thing is, it doesn't automatically make you special beyond how you behave and conduct yourself among your fellow human beings. A person can somehow be associated with western civilization and still be jerk.

We are where we are because of the collective advancements of human beings over the millennia. The center of those advancements has shifted over the course of human development. The advancement of western civilization is simply the most recent part of that -- due to a lot of influences and accidents of history.

So why the need to single it out as something superior? Because you can glom on to it by virtue of luck?

Hurray for Christianity and western civilization! Go team! Let's all sit around the campfire and high five each other.
On further review you did say a bit to that point - I'm sorry I didn't digest all of your statements for full context.

But my point holds, and I welcome your opinion that it was as much luck as a function of Christianity. Of course I disagree with you......
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Old 05-27-2017, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Furthermore, if you're a Christian with his finger on the trigger, then you're not a Christian at all (at least not one from Jesus's tribe). We are at this very confusing point in time mainly because of the distortion of both Christianity and Islam. Two wrongs don't make a right, and more suffering doesn't bring comfort. Who knows, maybe all his hatred began from someone spreading false opinions and the gullible digesting them as facts.


Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Hitler's false opinions had tens of millions killed for no reason. Sometimes, it's best to keep opinions to oneself. One never knows when they might be false.

Distorted viewpoints about Christianity brought nothing but slaughter and suffering to inhabitants of both North America and South America. Jesus dispatched His disciples to preach the Good News and to heal the sick. He didn't tell them to enslave the masses and take every thing they own. For a good reason, Gandhi said: "I like your Christ; I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Let's be clear--the quote was aimed at those trying to shackle his people. Not all Christians believe in abusing people. But, if you haven't noticed, a lot do.


This^^^

It's not rocket science Mo; it's just what happened and still happens.

And it's not a 'default' Aryan Nation stance either.

Okay, I understand you might not be openly racist, but longing for separation for you and your 'folk' so you guys can live out your own personal fantasies of the good old days (that never were), is silly at best.
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Old 05-27-2017, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Hitler's false opinions had tens of millions killed for no reason. Sometimes, it's best to keep opinions to oneself. One never knows when they might be false.

.

My topic wasn't intended to be about Hitler - so if you've arrived at Hitler I feel it's because of some intellectual Nihilism where the default position for people like you is to not look at what is being presented and go from there but to default immediately to "Because Hitler"

You could review my exchange with Myer for examples.

Or you can continue an unthinking default and eliminate the amount of people choosing to interact with you by one.
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Old 05-27-2017, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
My topic wasn't intended to be about Hitler - so if you've arrived at Hitler I feel it's because of some intellectual Nihilism where the default position for people like you is to not look at what is being presented and go from there but to default immediately to "Because Hitler"

You could review my exchange with Myer for examples.

Or you can continue an unthinking default and eliminate the amount of people choosing to interact with you by one.


That small Hitler part was over the top. I almost mentioned that.

Otherwise, highlighting one small part of CB's statement and ignoring the rest is trying to dodge the broader point
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Old 05-27-2017, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
But my point holds, and I welcome your opinion that it was as much luck as a function of Christianity. Of course I disagree with you......
It's about economics and power more than anything. The Magna Carta wasn't about Jesus. People finally started to figure out they were getting screwed and it filtered down.

You put food in people's bellies through the advancement of agriculture -- then it's not all about survival. All of a sudden people have time to think and they come up with ideas about science and political philosophy.

Christianity had something to do with it, but it's more about a confluence of events and ideas. And you know as well as I do that scientific advancement is exponential -- one thing leads to another and very little of it has to do with any religious belief.

Just back up, man -- and try to take in a bigger view.

Last edited by Myers; 05-27-2017 at 08:25 AM..
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Old 05-27-2017, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post

Just back up, man -- and try to take in a bigger view.
I'll view this as all things, including science are in the realm of God. So I like the view from this patch of dirt best....But thanks.
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Old 05-29-2017, 04:37 AM
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Yes. A fictional realm based on a convoluted myth. That's the most fascinating thing to me.

I really do go out of my way to be tolerant and understanding, but it's hard sometimes.

Last edited by Myers; 05-29-2017 at 07:39 AM..
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
The West - as I'll define it for this discussion is "Western Europe" and 'Murrica (With a side of Canadian hosers thrown in, eh?)

I'll borrow a few lines from Pat Buchanan's Piece "After The Confederacy-Who's Next?"

http://www.theamericanconservative.c...tes-whos-next/



I was in a honest to goodness campfire discussion, and one topic was about how Christianity (and the Catholic Church) propelled what was to become the west.

A friend noted that it was Christian beliefs, with attendant self discipline brought a discipline, and one thing in particular Christianity did that raised the bar.

Wherever possible, The Church stamped out incest and cousin marriage. The rise of average intelligence became noticeable within three generations. A more intelligent population started to look beyond their little duchies. Also, as people traveled for pilgrimages or missions they spread ideas faster than what would have occurred otherwise.
I think we can say that the church contributed to the rise of the West. And although it is a cliche to say that religion and science are sworn enemies, the latter excelling in spite of the former rather than because of it. I've since come to realise that as usual the truth isn't that simple. As a rule, when popular history tries to separate reality into two easily digestible camps, good and bad, you can more or less reject it off the bat.

What I would say though is that Christianity isn't innately useful to science and progress. We don't need religion for ethics, we do need to believe in ethics and for some religion helps with that... but I think it's pretty outmoded, it would be cool in philosophy was held in similar regard.

The Islamic world excelled in numerous fields during the dark ages, but somewhere along the way theocratic rule in the Islamic world began to restrain progress and reject modernity. So religious power certainly doesn't transfer into economic success and ingenuity by default.

Really what people need is freedom, of inquiry and enterprise. Whichever power centre promotes that is likely to see better results in comparison to power centres which do not. You could compare China in the 50's, 60's, 70's to China in the 80's, 90's, 00's.

Was is the supreme wisdom of the Chinese government which led to 300 million being lifted out of poverty? You could see it that way, but really they just relinquished their strangle hold over the economy. So it was people who lifted themselves out of poverty once the shackles were taken off. But of course the CCP will take all the credit... correlation/causation stuff.
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