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Disparity in outcome

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  #31  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:24 PM
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@ John:

John, I'm not convinced IQ has much bearing (unless it falls below average.)

A high I.Q doesn't make you hard working, resourceful, practical...etc.

I'm friends with a few genuinely 'brilliant' MENSA members -high functioning in their fields of work, but all with shambolic personal lives. Two of them earn a small fortune - but the bills are stacked up and nothing set aside for the future because they lack basic common sense and savvy.

Some people can live happily without any goal in life other than enough food on the table for today and a couple of drinks at the weekend. They don't lack intelligence, they lack drive and ambition. Nothing wrong with that - but it's not about IQ.

Similarly, some of the World's richest men are self confessed dunces - they just chased their dreams hard enough to make them happen.

Some people jump hurdles. Other people stop, take a look and say "Oh well." Just depends how you're made.
Ultimately, it depends on how bad you want something.

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Old 07-13-2017, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
Similarly, some of the World's richest men are self confessed dunces - they just chased their dreams hard enough to make them happen.
And some of them become president of the United States.

P.S. I guess the "self confessed" part doesn't really apply.

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Old 07-13-2017, 01:57 PM
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[QUOTE=brianpatrick

Is this a question or a demand?

[/QUOTE]

Please choose the inference that you are comfortable with.
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Old 07-13-2017, 02:19 PM
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I remember seeing an interview with Richard Branson. He told a story about jumping in a London cab one night , in a hurry to get to some function he was running late for. He said the cab driver was a chirpy little cockney who recognised him and talked non-stop. After ten minutes, Branson realised they were going the wrong way but the driver wouldn't stop. He told Branson he would drop him off as soon as they'd called in to his Mum's house and he'd played Branson his demo tape. The cab driver was Phil Collins - and Branson, of course, signed him.

Plucky people with self belief get somewhere. Spielberg set himself up in a trailer on a film set without a job or credentials to be there. He just believed he could make it.

Somebody (and I can't for the life of me remember who) interviewed the top 50 most successful people. The common denominator wasn't IQ. It was the unshakeable belief that they were destined for greatness.

This was instilled by parents who told them they could do ANYTHING (Branson, Cowell, Gates) and coupled with their refusal to quit no matter how many times they went bankrupt or failed.
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Old 07-13-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
The cab driver was Phil Collins - and Branson, of course, signed him.
I hadn't heard that story. But I guess it also helps if you were the drummer and second front man for Genesis.
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Old 07-13-2017, 02:45 PM
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There's something to be said for believing in yourself. At sixteen, I took my high school diploma two years early and quit school.

I answered an ad in the paper which said, "Experienced only need apply," by showing up at the office at four-thirty in the morning, ready for work.

Looking me up and down, the foreman asked, "You got any experience?"

"No," I said, "but show me how, and in fifteen minutes I will."

I was hired on the spot, and became one of their top employees.
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Old 07-13-2017, 03:09 PM
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[QUOTE=Grace Gabriel

Somebody (and I can't for the life of me remember who) interviewed the top 50 most successful people. The common denominator wasn't IQ. It was the unshakeable belief that they were destined for greatness.

This was instilled by parents who told them they could do ANYTHING (Branson, Cowell, Gates) and coupled with their refusal to quit no matter how many times they went bankrupt or failed.

[/QUOTE]


Seems to me I recently heard of a country bein' run by a president who pretty much fits the aforegoing details.
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Old 07-13-2017, 03:15 PM
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It also helps if your dad gives you several million bucks and a Manhattan real estate company.
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Old 07-13-2017, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I don't think Asians nor Jewish Groups top people in IQ.

Statistically they don't. That is a false argument. IQ is not related to race or religion.

There might be some cultural characteristics which allow some groups to appear smarter than others, but it's not biology.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
@ John:

John, I'm not convinced IQ has much bearing (unless it falls below average.)

A high I.Q doesn't make you hard working, resourceful, practical...etc.

I'm friends with a few genuinely 'brilliant' MENSA members -high functioning in their fields of work, but all with shambolic personal lives. Two of them earn a small fortune - but the bills are stacked up and nothing set aside for the future because they lack basic common sense and savvy.

Some people can live happily without any goal in life other than enough food on the table for today and a couple of drinks at the weekend. They don't lack intelligence, they lack drive and ambition. Nothing wrong with that - but it's not about IQ.

Similarly, some of the World's richest men are self confessed dunces - they just chased their dreams hard enough to make them happen.

Some people jump hurdles. Other people stop, take a look and say "Oh well." Just depends how you're made.
Ultimately, it depends on how bad you want something.


I think there is an optimal range of IQ that makes life pretty easy given a reasonable upbringing. Somewhere between 120-130 on the Stanford-Binet. Higher than that and people become socially stilted and weird.

I also think a lot of those rich 'dunces' are smarter than they let on.

'Optimal' IQ allows most to be good at anything they want to. Although, solving differential equations in their sleep is not likely.

Like you said, people with very high IQ's have no ability to relate socially. They may achieve great things but without 'handlers' they would likely die in squalor and be writing algorithms on the wall of their mental hospital cells in feces, or whatever material they could find.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:57 PM
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I'm learning a lot here.

Middling or low intelligence, institutional discrimination, lack of an adequate education and generational poverty doesn't matter.

All you need is someone to tell you can achieve anything -- and/or a generous dose of spunk and a go get 'em attitude -- and anything is possible!

Yay!!!!

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Old 07-13-2017, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
I'm learning a lot here.

Middling or low intelligence, institutional discrimination, lack of an adequate education and generational poverty doesn't matter.

All you need is someone to tell you can achieve anything -- and/or a generous dose of spunk and a go get 'em attitude -- and anything is possible!

Yay!!!!


Yeah, well you didn't hear that from me. I only preach the gospel according to brian.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:15 PM
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Lots of gray areas.

But let's at least acknowledge that because of circumstances they can't change, there are a lot of people who are kind of fucked from day one.

Doesn't have a damned thing to do with IQ or playing the "discrimination card" or comparisons to any other group or culture who have managed to succeed despite hardships over the centuries.

I'm not saying I have any answers -- but none of this opining or navel gazing has anything to do with solving the problems of income inequity or dealing with "disparity of outcome."

Just more online yaking and bullshit...

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Old 07-13-2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Lots of gray areas.

But let's at least acknowledge that because of circumstances they can't change, there are a lot of people who are kind of fucked from day one.

Doesn't have a damned thing to do with IQ or playing the "discrimination card" or comparisons to any other group or culture who have managed to succeed despite hardships over the centuries.

I'm not saying I have any answers -- but none of this opining or navel gazing has anything to do with solving the problems of income inequity or dealing with "disparity of outcome."

Just more online yaking and bullshit...


And, in your opinion, should those fucked from day one continue to be fucked their entire lives? Is that somehow their fate? Doomed to a marginal existence and bled for profit by the more fortunate?

Or should we work toward a solution?

Is there a solution?
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
And, in your opinion, should those fucked from day one continue to be fucked their entire lives? Is that somehow their fate? Doomed to a marginal existence and bled for profit by the more fortunate?

Or should we work toward a solution?

Is there a solution?
Do I have a solution or know if there is or can be a solution?

I think I already answered that question.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:00 PM
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See, I'm actually one of the few people who you may encounter online who can actually admit that he doesn't have any answers.

But I am reasonably sure that there a lot of people who are mired in poverty, and for lack of better term -- ignorance -- combined with generational malaise. And some of that has to do with 50 years of well-intentioned anti-poverty programs.

It goes way back -- even if you just start in the post war period, when jobs went out of the cities and to places where minorities weren't allowed to live.

Or more recently in rural areas were jobs on farms and in mills and mines went away.

In the U.S. anyway -- a lot of this talk about bootstraps and IQ and gumption is just bullshit.

There is a possibility that a lot of jobs may materialize in the tech sector or renewable energy or whatever. But how do you educate and move all these people into those jobs?

It's going to be a long and painful process -- if the shit doesn't hit the fan before any of this pans out.

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Old 07-13-2017, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I don't think Asians nor Jewish Groups top people in IQ, OTOH if you use a standardize test some groups will peak and some will not do well.
.
Just for the record, here's a ranking:

World ranking of countries by their average

Rank Country IQ

1 Hong Kong 108
1 Singapore 108
2 South Korea 106
3 Japan 105

Wherever you go for your source you'll most likely see these guys at the top. Diaspora Jews is supposed to be closer to 115 but that's looking at a very specific group rather than a national average.
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
@ John:

John, I'm not convinced IQ has much bearing (unless it falls below average.)

A high I.Q doesn't make you hard working, resourceful, practical...etc.

I'm friends with a few genuinely 'brilliant' MENSA members -high functioning in their fields of work, but all with shambolic personal lives. Two of them earn a small fortune - but the bills are stacked up and nothing set aside for the future because they lack basic common sense and savvy.

Some people can live happily without any goal in life other than enough food on the table for today and a couple of drinks at the weekend. They don't lack intelligence, they lack drive and ambition. Nothing wrong with that - but it's not about IQ.

Similarly, some of the World's richest men are self confessed dunces - they just chased their dreams hard enough to make them happen.

Some people jump hurdles. Other people stop, take a look and say "Oh well." Just depends how you're made.
Ultimately, it depends on how bad you want something.
I hear what you're saying and it is valid to a degree but really it's the tall Asian argument. You might know ten tall Asian people but it doesn't mean that they're not shorter than Westerners on average.

A lot of the hip-hop which is popular today positively celebrates being rich and stupid. Some successful people are dumb, MOST aren't.

The thing is even the 'you just have to want it bad enough' argument is controversial. Then whites want it more than blacks... men want it more than women... problematic, see?
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:20 PM
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I believe a person's outcome depends on three things:

1) Luck.
2) Situational awareness.
3) Luck.

The luck is being born into the right family, in the right time, on the right continent, etc.

The situational awareness means being able to recognise what advantages you may have, and capitalizing on them.

The luck is whether you succeed, or whether you get blindsided by a truck on the way.

I've known dumb people who found a niche and did well in it. I know highly intelligent people who live on the street. Most of the "racist" people I know are minorities, but the most successful of them are the least racist.

Is there a solution to the "problem" of disparity of outcome? I would say, unless you're trying to get something for nothing, and think it's owed to you, disparity of outcome isn't a problem. It's a natural condition, like big tits or thin hair, and if it bothers you, you can work on fixing it yourself, but no one owes you a cure.

You can't expect the government to offer free breast reduction surgeries or to subsidize Rogain, same as you can't expect them to prop you up if you don't do well in life.

And what is "doing well?" The American suburban middle-class ideal is not all it's cracked up to be. To expect everyone to aspire to it is crazy. A person can want far less from life without being "disenfranchised." Some of the happiest people have little, materially, and would probably take offense at being called disenfranchised or under-privileged.

Most people who don't feel they have enough work harder to get what they want. Some people who decide others don't have as much as they think they should have, look for some one to blame and try to make them fix it.

You can't fix some things.
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I also think a lot of those rich 'dunces' are smarter than they let on.
Whatever people think of him, I'm willing to bet Trump's IQ is way above average.
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
I believe a person's outcome depends on three things:

1) Luck.
2) Situational awareness.
3) Luck.

The luck is being born into the right family, in the right time, on the right continent, etc.

The situational awareness means being able to recognise what advantages you may have, and capitalizing on them.

The luck is whether you succeed, or whether you get blindsided by a truck on the way.

I've known dumb people who found a niche and did well in it. I know highly intelligent people who live on the street. Most of the "racist" people I know are minorities, but the most successful of them are the least racist.

Is there a solution to the "problem" of disparity of outcome? I would say, unless you're trying to get something for nothing, and think it's owed to you, disparity of outcome isn't a problem. It's a natural condition, like big tits or thin hair, and if it bothers you, you can work on fixing it yourself, but no one owes you a cure.

You can't expect the government to offer free breast reduction surgeries or to subsidize Rogain, same as you can't expect them to prop you up if you don't do well in life.

And what is "doing well?" The American suburban middle-class ideal is not all it's cracked up to be. To expect everyone to aspire to it is crazy. A person can want far less from life without being "disenfranchised." Some of the happiest people have little, materially, and would probably take offense at being called disenfranchised or under-privileged.

Most people who don't feel they have enough work harder to get what they want. Some people who decide others don't have as much as they think they should have, look for some one to blame and try to make them fix it.

You can't fix some things.
This is a really fascinating post to me. The 'three things' is positively Marxist, and also goes back to something I wrote about John Stuart Mill who was certainly an apologist for Socialism if not an advocate (even though his most famous tract is 'On Liberty').

I read endless Marxist leaning propaganda which said this very thing over and over, just in as sophisticated a way as one could put it. Essentially your natural endowments are not of your doing, neither is say your economic, geological or chronological advantages you may have had at birth.

There are then two reactions, and yours is not the one which has been the experience of the last 100 years. The reaction of 'it's a natural condition' I think is perfectly rational, that 'you can't fix some things' I'm not sure... that would be true if indeed it was mostly luck. I don't think the primacy of luck is true, and it's certainly not useful that's for sure.

So the last hundred years instead of saying it's a natural condition and no one owes you success, once you take all the moral posturing out of it, it is the successful who have been called upon to atone for their achievements -- or at least to admit that their achievements are not their own.

And the policies which ensue from this position, ie: egalitarianism, I think have this effect. This will be simplistic an cliched but hear me out! Say you have a classroom taking their final exams, top quintile all get A's, middle quintiles all B's C's and D's, bottom quintile E's and F's. But you're an egalitarian so the only difference between the bottom and the top is luck, so you redistribute the grades so that everyone ends up with a C.

What happens to this classroom? Well what's the point in trying to get an A if you're just given a C anyway? -- and what's the point in trying not to get an E if you'll get a C in the end?

This might sound simplistic, but if you REALLY take this luck thing seriously this is what plays out in nation states. It's often what is called the 'brain drain', you start redistributing enough and your best and brightest will just fly away at their earliest opportunity. And the stupidest people will be clamouring for more redistribution instead of trying to better themselves.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
I remember seeing an interview with Richard Branson. He told a story about jumping in a London cab one night , in a hurry to get to some function he was running late for. He said the cab driver was a chirpy little cockney who recognised him and talked non-stop. After ten minutes, Branson realised they were going the wrong way but the driver wouldn't stop. He told Branson he would drop him off as soon as they'd called in to his Mum's house and he'd played Branson his demo tape. The cab driver was Phil Collins - and Branson, of course, signed him.
So it's all Branson's fault. Is there no end to that man's villainy?
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
I'm learning a lot here.

Middling or low intelligence, institutional discrimination, lack of an adequate education and generational poverty doesn't matter.

All you need is someone to tell you can achieve anything -- and/or a generous dose of spunk and a go get 'em attitude -- and anything is possible!

Yay!!!!

EXACTLY.

This is why you need to pay attention when I tell you you're handsome, and talented - and NEVER read idrew's crit
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
So it's all Branson's fault. Is there no end to that man's villainy?

Yep - everything is down to him.

The sooner he perfects his moon rocket the better - we should just leave him there.
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
EXACTLY.

This is why you need to pay attention when I tell you you're handsome, and talented - and NEVER read idrew's crit
As much as I never get tired of hearing it, I'm fully aware that I'm handsome and talented.

as for iDrews crits -- they're so helpful, I'm thinking about adopting her methods...

there's just got to be SOMETHING wrong with this...

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Old 07-14-2017, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post

You can't fix some things.
For a couple of different reasons, I'm regularly exposed to both rural and urban poverty -- and it can be very discouraging and infuriating.

At the risk of sounding like a bleeding heart, it's about the children who have no say in it.

And it isn't about aspiring to achieve middle class status, so much as it's about just doing something to give people a chance early enough so that it makes a difference -- so they can make their own choices.

In a country where there is so much concentrated affluence, it seems kind of pathetic just to throw up our hands and say it can't be fixed.

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Old 07-14-2017, 06:56 AM
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[QUOTE=Myers;734546]As much as I never get tired of hearing it, I'm fully aware that I'm handsome and talented.

...yep.

So you're not going to sink to the lowest level to become invisible.

Myers, have you read Jinjonator's story in Member's Only? Interesting in light of this conversation....an apocalypse caused by demons that force you to re-live the worst memories of your life.

Guess that's some people's reality.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:11 AM
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I may be handsome and talented but I can be a little thick. What do you mean "become invisible?" Do you mean insignificant?

Haven't read Jinjonator's story -- but I do have my have my own demons and they regularly force me to relive my worst memories. But that's not such a bad thing -- those memories keep me on the straight and narrow -- for the most part.


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Old 07-14-2017, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
I may be handsome and talented but I can be a little thick. What do you mean "become invisible?" Do you mean insignificant?

Haven't read Jinjonator's story -- but I do have my have my own demons and they regularly force me to relive my worst memories. But that's not such a bad thing -- those memories keep me on the straight and narrow -- for the most part.


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People settle at the level that they feel they belong to.

If you think your life doesn't have you pegged at the right station - you keep climbing.

Conversely, some sink until they're off of society's radar. They become invisible.

There are interesting studies on lottery winners - the one's who couldn't perceive themselves as wealthy and happy squandered the money rapidly to resume their natural and comfortable state of poverty. (No amount of financial counselling changed the pattern.)

Without deliberately sounding negative or trying to piss on John's bonfire, I can not see that there is any cure for the World's disparity. We just sink, rise or float at the level of our subconscious choosing.

The gospel according to Grace. Amen x
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post

I read endless Marxist leaning propaganda which said this very thing over and over, just in as sophisticated a way as one could put it. Essentially your natural endowments are not of your doing, neither is say your economic, geological or chronological advantages you may have had at birth.
You're right -- these things are not of your doing. What you do with them is.

So the last hundred years instead of saying it's a natural condition and no one owes you success...
Again, no one owes you anything (or, in light of the conversation, society doesn't owe you anything, at least not equality of outcome), but that doesn't mean you can't earn something, if your luck holds out.

... once you take all the moral posturing out of it, it is the successful who have been called upon to atone for their achievements -- or at least to admit that their achievements are not their own.
Again, it's what you make with what you've got that's your's.


And the policies which ensue from this position, ie: egalitarianism, I think have this effect. This will be simplistic an cliched but hear me out! Say you have a classroom taking their final exams, top quintile all get A's, middle quintiles all B's C's and D's, bottom quintile E's and F's. But you're an egalitarian so the only difference between the bottom and the top is luck, so you redistribute the grades so that everyone ends up with a C.

What happens to this classroom? Well what's the point in trying to get an A if you're just given a C anyway? -- and what's the point in trying not to get an E if you'll get a C in the end?
That's what you get when you offer free breast reductions and Rogain.

This might sound simplistic, but if you REALLY take this luck thing seriously this is what plays out in nation states. It's often what is called the 'brain drain', you start redistributing enough and your best and brightest will just fly away at their earliest opportunity. And the stupidest people will be clamouring for more redistribution instead of trying to better themselves.
I'm thinking you're misunderstanding me. Luck puts you where you are at birth. Situational awareness is what you do with what you've got, and luck (or the absence of it) determines whether you keep it.

The most important of the three is situational awareness.
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