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  #31  
Old 08-31-2017, 09:46 PM
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Maybe we should base currency on orgasms😀

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  #32  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:06 PM
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Naw -- too many are fake.
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  #33  
Old 09-01-2017, 01:39 AM
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There's nothing to suggest that all fiat currency could become its intrinsic value.

The value of Fiat currency signifies the strength of your economy. If you have thriving businesses producing goods and services which are in high demand within the market then people accepting your currency in exchange for goods and services have confidence that it can be spent elsewhere on things which are of similar or more value at any point in the future.

Say you, I dunno, confiscate all arable land and give it to a bunch of military types, y'know for kicks or whatever, and all this farming land becomes arid and meanwhile you print loads of money to fund these military types who are engaged in some useless war, and they use this money to buy up what little food there is for way above the usual market value... then you've got too many notes chasing too few goods. And then if you try and buy stuff to import with your useless currency people are gonna be like 'what am I actually going to be able to buy with this... your economy looks like shit, the price of bread is a gazillion dollars, and I'm pretty sure your government have no idea what they are doing'.

Happens to the best of us... but not everyone at once. I can't see how that could ever happen. Gold standard might a way to instil confidence in one's currency... or just use dollars (as Zimbabwe now do), or whatever has value -- apart from food, clothing and shelter value is kinda arbitrary anyway.

The removal of government meddling (Bitcoin) would certainly remove some of the usual pitfalls, ie: printing like crazy to service national debt etc.
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  #34  
Old 09-01-2017, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I hear this argument, and understand the clear line of rational thought behind it. But... the problem with putting America, or the world, back on a gold standard is we would never have enough gold to support the actual growth that is and has been happening in the world. Forcing us back onto a gold standard would only make the now 1% richer while simultaneously (further) crush the bottom end of the socio-economic ladder. The reason we have fairly low unemployment and relatively low inflation is because there is enough electronic money to support the growth that is happening (whether we like it or not). Gold could never now keep up.

We DO need another idea here. Not sure what it is, but I don't think the gold standard will ever be IT.
Basing a new economic path on whether or not the 1% gets richer is playing a losing game. Or perhaps you end up with something draconian that just switches who gets to be that 1%. But people that are in that 1%, especially those that move into or grow further are good at sniffing out whatever monetary opportunity there is.

You're concerns about returning to a gold standard are in part valid. hat said, the rich poor gap happens more with a fiat currency and grew worse with cycle of Quantitative Easing that Bernanke, Yellen and company enacted.

Subsidized staple foods, (milk, bread) and cheap good food (eggs) along with an oil market glutted by the Saudi's mask a lot of the inflation inherent in the QE/Debt monetizing process. If you go by something like The Hamburger Index or The Steak Index, then inflation is a bit more apparent.

If the middle easterners hadn't glutted the oil market in order to dampen the latest US oil recovery efforts gas would be hovering at $3.00/gallon and inflation would be a bit more apparent. Unlike the US oil boom of the early and mid 1980s, most of the producers have been able to hang on, if not be as profitable.

Whatever role you want government to play in economic policy, taking a look at what it would take to return the entrepreneurial class, yeoman class, etc would be more effective in rebuilding "the middle" than things directed at toppling "the one percent".
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  #35  
Old 09-01-2017, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
Xenon is rare and a noble gas. But it is not shiny and solid.

But the point is, in a society made up of people under a 'social contract' there should be value in the people, the problem with any tokenistic representation of goods / services is that people attempt to accumulate more than they can utilise. Eventually this token value exceeds the value of most of the people in the society (the people who have less). Yet if there were a physical reality in the tokenistic representation this will somewhat combat this, or better yet have the token currency relative to the welfare of the individuals making the society.
Once again, I do not think you are disagreeing with me. Just stating things from an obverse angle.
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  #36  
Old 09-01-2017, 02:31 PM
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I can't think about all the minutia and machinations.

I've got a lot of money in various funds and accounts -- I just have this nagging feeling that I'll wake up one day and it will all have disappeared.

If the shit really hits the fan a pile of cash or gold or whatever isn't going to do you a damn bit of good. So you just play the game.

What am I going to do -- "Hey, if you give me some food and firewood, I'll write and design a brochure for you?"

Last edited by Myers; 09-01-2017 at 02:35 PM..
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  #37  
Old 09-01-2017, 02:34 PM
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Well, I am glad someone mentioned diamonds. Myers was correct to mention diamonds. The plus side is that there is nothing interesting to discuss, and that is always a positive. Good.
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  #38  
Old 09-07-2017, 05:10 AM
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("...I predict the dissolution of the multinationals..." ventured the goblin thinking that that was what happened each time something imposed itself too far upon the sovereign state or upon its citizenship, adding "...quite a few historical examples abound, the all powerful knights templars in their day, the monasteries in henry VIII time, the monarchy in france, and each time too no one dared think such a thing was possible, yet it happened quite rapidly in fact, so ask yourself whether at this rate which country today actually needs these multinationals there, and think upon what assets they would gain in the dissolution of the multinationals, and what t will be be like if those countries allow the multinationals to continue in their expansion...")

Last edited by fleamailman; 09-07-2017 at 05:15 AM..
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  #39  
Old 09-07-2017, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by fleamailman View Post
("...I predict the dissolution of the multinationals..." ventured the goblin thinking that that was what happened each time something imposed itself too far upon the sovereign state or upon its citizenship, adding "...quite a few historical examples abound, the all powerful knights templars in their day, the monasteries in henry VIII time, the monarchy in france, and each time too no one dared think such a thing was possible, yet it happened quite rapidly in fact, so ask yourself whether at this rate which country today actually needs these multinationals there, and think upon what assets they would gain in the dissolution of the multinationals, and what t will be be like if those countries allow the multinationals to continue in their expansion...")
Hey Goblin,

So you grabbed my attention... I heard this is a thing:

Multinationals which are so big as to hold almost a monopoly on things are usually propped up by the state and protected politically from competition. Moreover they have enough money and power to a) lobby the government for whatever legislation might benefit them to the detriment of rivals b) be party to the old revolving door con.

Then, might the state, instead of being a block or an inhibitor for this kind of power, be the very tool which permits it to grow beyond what would normally be possible?

For example: Say you're a multinational construction company. The biggest client is always going to be the government. So you devise the largest construction plan in the world, I dunno say a system of highways across Europe, maybe you enlist the help of a couple similar entities. You want this plan in the hands of the top dogs in Brussels. And hey, with the proceeds both parties, the construction multinationals, and their friends in Brussels can be made very very rich... and there's more-or-less no risk, free money right?

This level of corruption happens all the time and for those engaged in it, the larger the state the better, and why would you want to put a stop to it? The incentive is probably more on the side of muscling out companies which don't do this sort of thing. Personally I think multinationals would do much worse without their friends in government.

You might say that modern examples of private power being dissolved by government is simply the act of nationalising certain industries. So far as I can tell, this just becomes an even less productive feeding frenzy.
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  #40  
Old 09-08-2017, 04:36 AM
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("...yes governments are so short-sighted..." conceded the goblin, thanking JohnConstantine for that great reply though, then adding "...yet if things go too far then usually those governments will act in their own interest, or where not then their military will invariably act in their place without them...", where america has been both the military might and the law of last resort of those multinationals together with those banks there, yet if america were now to become that banana republic through to its own short-sightedness, its spiralling costs, its ever increasing red type, not to mention by that devaluing of its currency too, all being unintended consequences of their offshoring outsourcing and the suppression of competition too as practised by those multinationals together with those banks agian, then in that case the goblin clearly understood that america too would become a "dictatorship in all but name" for its own protection even, being something bad in itself perhaps, agreed then, but still better, far better perhaps, than this corrupt decaying sham democracy as seen today, asking "...so now, looking throughout history, doesn't severe corruption always lead to some dictatorship of sorts with a ceaser at its top, yet just who will be america's next ceaser very much depends upon those loyalties of the military at the time, though he won't be a politician though, for history shows us that the military chooses someone from their own ranks eventually...")

Last edited by fleamailman; 09-16-2017 at 05:44 AM..
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  #41  
Old 10-10-2017, 11:26 AM
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("...perhaps britain should just wait it out then, as in the end it's not answerable to the EU really..." ventured the goblin thinking that britain was a country while the european union was only a mere agreement structure between a bunch of countries, and of the two it was the EU not britain that had no future really, to which the goblin restarted "...yes, it's funny how often an over presumptuous creditor can forget that simple line of sovereign debt does not have to be repaid...", for if britain defaulted it would still be there tomorrow, whereas when italy finally defaults the european union will effectively end)
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