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  #61  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Chinspinner View Post
OK, that is the point where I kinda nod off a little. There was once a hippy (perhaps like or unlike George Harrison, or maybe Graham Chapman) shit happened, people invented a fable around it... wtf then happened?



But my earlier point was this: I dislike the way popular culture picks weak targets to shoot down, and Christianity/ offshoots is a weak target because they will not shoot you for drawing cartoons. At this point I am firmly on the side of the underdog.


Personally I agree except there was probably no hippy (Chapman, Harrison, or otherwise). The wisdom was imported from lots of other cultures and blended into a “Christ” figure.

But Mo’s belief is there was “pure wisdom” from the mouth of Christ endowed by God the creator. He was just saying that religions (in some ways) fucked-up the pure word.

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Old 08-26-2018, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
This is nonsense. There is no evidence God ever had a hand in any man made religions. It's more likely they were dreamed up by patriarchs obsessed with their own power.

Jesus was a spiritual guru and had no time for organised religion. He was running rings around the local clergy while still a boy. It was his subversive teaching that made the pharisees set about destroying him.
And was a very naughty aggressive boy apparently according to a program I watched a while ago.
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  #63  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Personally I agree except there was probably no hippy (Chapman, Harrison, or otherwise). The wisdom was imported from lots of other cultures and blended into a “Christ” figure.

But Mo’s belief is there was “pure wisdom” from the mouth of Christ endowed by God the creator. He was just saying that religions (in some ways) fucked-up the pure word.
But that comes back to the very fundamentals of why religion is silly, and I do not think I have the patience to explain that. I was trying to skirt it so as not to get into silliness.

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  #64  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
Give me some Henry Rollins to google - I'm curious


https://youtu.be/Vj-B42gXcoQ
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Old 08-26-2018, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Thanks. Hadn't heard of him before.
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Old 08-26-2018, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Chinspinner View Post
Ok, and now you wandered off into left field. As you mention, Judaism pre-dates Christianity and its off-shoots by some time. But Jesus and his disciples organised it 300 years after they died? Come on!

I didn't say that Jesus organized the Orthodox and/or Catholic churches in 300ad, now did I?
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Old 08-26-2018, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Prior to Jesus, the God organized the religion of the Jews.


Jesus, himself and then with guidance through disciples and apostles organized the early form of Christianity - which is pure at it's roots.



IMO it took a different turn at the Council of Nicea
Maybe the nuance is lost on me. 300 years is a long, long time.
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Old 08-26-2018, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
LOL now have you some nasa spying gadget somewhere haha
Got the ears of a bat, the heart of an angel and the devil's sense of humour.

I'm watching you madam - I know what mischief lies behind that smile of yours.

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  #69  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
And was a very naughty aggressive boy apparently according to a program i watched a while.
That was CBeebies channel - you been watching Horrid Henry again?
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  #70  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:27 PM
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Okay, this might cross with your response. but, Jesus' teachings were corrupted 300 years later is the assessment?

I'll grant that.
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  #71  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
That was CBeebies channel - you been watching Horrid Henry again?
Life of Brian. Dunno about the aggressive part though? That might be CBeebies.
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  #72  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
Thanks. Hadn't heard of him before.


He still tours with his spoken word. I think he just gets up on stage and starts talking. Most of it’s not spoken word poetry, just stories about being an outsider in the world of the worshipped and famous.

https://youtu.be/SVTAzQ-e07g
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Old 08-26-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
This is nonsense. There is no evidence God ever had a hand in any man made religions. It's more likely they were dreamed up by patriarchs obsessed with their own power.

Jesus was a spiritual guru and had no time for organised religion. He was running rings around the local clergy while still a boy. It was his subversive teaching that made the pharisees set about destroying him.



I consider the initial form of Judaism and the early form of Christianity to be ordered/organized by God. I base this on scriptures and a little reading outside of the scriptures.



If you have faith it has to have a starting point, my point would be belief and belief in the scriptures. A reading of Exodus one into say, Judges would paint this picture.



@ brianpatrick - as a person (you) who claims to be an unbeliever I find it a bit amusing to see an animus to Paul. (in the past I know you have referred to him as a scold) I believe you have shared that your wife is Catholic? And among some Catholics there is an animus against Paul, and a preference for Peter. (the Catholics want to keep their vast fortunes, and not let Peter pay Paul? )



Paul was the one who expanded the Early Church beyond Israel and it's nether regions, taking it onto Eastern Europe, "Eurasia" and Western Asia.



Paul might have been a scold, he was a man who called a spade a spade, and even writing from prisons would send pointed messages to various churches in regards to their errors.
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  #74  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I consider the initial form of Judaism and the early form of Christianity to be ordered/organized by God. I base this on scriptures and a little reading outside of the scriptures.



If you have faith it has to have a starting point, my point would be belief and belief in the scriptures. A reading of Exodus one into say, Judges would paint this picture.



@ brianpatrick - as a person (you) who claims to be an unbeliever I find it a bit amusing to see an animus to Paul. (in the past I know you have referred to him as a scold) I believe you have shared that your wife is Catholic? And among some Catholics there is an animus against Paul, and a preference for Peter. (the Catholics want to keep their vast fortunes, and not let Peter pay Paul? )



Paul was the one who expanded the Early Church beyond Israel and it's nether regions, taking it onto Eastern Europe, "Eurasia" and Western Asia.



Paul might have been a scold, he was a man who called a spade a spade, and even writing from prisons would send pointed messages to various churches in regards to their errors.


Honestly, I don’t believe any of it is historical. No (one) Christ, no apostles, etc.

That said, a thinking person can’t deny the wisdom in some of Christianity/Judaism, especially the more esoteric teachings. Most of jewish tradition seems to be an explanation of human psychology, right and wrong. Just a picture of what is.

I don’t have faith, but my wife forces me not to dismiss the whole thing out of hand.
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  #75  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Honestly, I don’t believe any of it is historical. No (one) Christ, no apostles, etc.

That said, a thinking person can’t deny the wisdom in some of Christianity/Judaism, especially the more esoteric teachings. Most of jewish tradition seems to be an explanation of human psychology, right and wrong. Just a picture of what is.

I don’t have faith, but my wife forces me not to dismiss the whole thing out of hand.
Without a doubt, you do not just discard 2000 years (plus for Judaism) without consideration. You do not discard heritage, or culture or the foundation of societies.

Hence why celebrity atheists irritate me beyond measure despite being an atheist myself.
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Old 08-26-2018, 02:08 PM
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That said, a thinking person can’t deny the wisdom in some of Christianity/Judaism, especially the more esoteric teachings. Most of jewish tradition seems to be an explanation of human psychology, right and wrong. Just a picture of what is.

I can look at esoteric things and non esoteric things and see history, and in some sense a survival manual for society. - Mainly Old Testament
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  #77  
Old 08-26-2018, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I can look at esoteric things and non esoteric things and see history, and in some sense a survival manual for society. - Mainly Old Testament
An odd choice for a survival manual, I think I would have Machiavelli higher on my list.
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Old 08-26-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I can look at esoteric things and non esoteric things and see history, and in some sense a survival manual for society. - Mainly Old Testament


Only a survival manual for society as it “was.”

It is changing under you and me and will be so different in 200 years, that if we were alive we’d be astounded.

History repeats itself for several generations but with small technological changes. The changes are becoming more rapid now, and what was true of the Jewish tribes may be slightly represented, but unrecognizable to a man of 2018 in 200 years.

God is already dead. Nietzsche was wrong when he wrote that book. A return to judaeo/Christian values did help Americans in the 50’s and 60’s, but it won’t be of use to a man in 2218.

This whole right wing Christian fundamentalist thing is in its last gasps. It’s what an organization does when it’s faced with extinction. It militarizes. It hardens and becomes combative, self-protective, isolationist, and then finally dies.

Much like the Japanese practitioners of Shinto, Christianity will be a token ceremony.
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Old 08-26-2018, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I consider the initial form of Judaism and the early form of Christianity to be ordered/organized by God. I base this on scriptures and a little reading outside of the scriptures.



If you have faith it has to have a starting point, my point would be belief and belief in the scriptures. .
And I consider the Dog’s Arse Messiah to be the Second Coming. Isn’t faith a wonderful thing?
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Old 08-27-2018, 08:11 AM
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I'll check back with you in two thousand years, flyingtart. If you're still considered the Dog's Arse Messiah's Paul, I'll say your faith wasn't misplaced.
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Old 08-27-2018, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
The Dog’s Arse Messiah was hounded off this forum by religion haters and knuckleheaded mods. Which goes to show there’s more hate than love in religion.
Tart, before I say anything else, I need to tell you something important (dramatic pause)...We're all here today because we love you and we care about you (nodding around the circle.)...This Arse Dog Messiah thing has to stop now ...it's hurting you and everybody else around you (more unanimous nodding) ...And I need to show you something which will be very painful...but it's an important step to recovery Tart

( reaches for 'BeeGees - The Legend In Pictures')

Now...this is your Arse Dog Messiah Tart...and this is a picture of Barry Gibb in a terry towelling bath robe (group intake of breath as loud sob erupts from Tart).. I know..I know...just let it out..we're all here for you...
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  #82  
Old 08-27-2018, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
And I consider the Dog’s Arse Messiah to be the Second Coming. Isn’t faith a wonderful thing?
What about the first coming? Who is responsible for that?
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Old 08-27-2018, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
I'll check back with you in two thousand years, flyingtart. If you're still considered the Dog's Arse Messiah's Paul, I'll say your faith wasn't misplaced.
I am not sure the Pope would be happy about that. He has been here longer.
Just saying.
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Old 08-27-2018, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
I am not sure the Pope would be happy about that. He has been here longer.

Just saying.


The first pope appeared in 366AD, so not quite 2000 years.
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Old 08-27-2018, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
The first pope appeared in 366AD, so not quite 2000 years.
Yes but that is not the point. I don't even get the pope anyway.
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Old 08-27-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
Yes but that is not the point. I don't even get the pope anyway.


The Catholic Church has been losing members since the early 90’s. Floods left when the priest pedophile controversies broke, and they continue to pour out. My wife’s church is down by half in active members. It’s a matter of time before the whole thing collapses and the scandals bleed into other denominations—other less structured denominations.
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Old 08-27-2018, 06:44 PM
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I say something I hear a lot, "I grew up Catholic." But they're not anymore.

I wonder how much of that is due to how all the mainline churches are loosing members in droves. I know with a lot my friends, they're moving to the mega churches, and it's not even for theological reason, it's because of the facilities and activities etc. Youth groups and related activities are big draw, because parents want to keep their kids interested and going to church.

My wife's church (Episcopalian) it's dwindling and aging fast. The youth group is a sad little thing, my kids have no interest. My wife volunteers in the nursery and more often than not they have to send volunteers away because there aren't very many little kids to mind anymore.

Of course, the transition from a mainline protestant church to a non denominational mega church isn't that hard, it's a much bigger leap for a Catholic.
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Old 08-27-2018, 08:58 PM
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It’s a comforting thought but I fear only wishful thinking. The boneheaded bible thumpers will never give it up because

a. It substitutes for doing their own thinking and
b. It gives them a judgmental stick to beat non believers
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Old 08-28-2018, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
The Catholic Church has been losing members since the early 90’s. Floods left when the priest pedophile controversies broke, and they continue to pour out. My wife’s church is down by half in active members. It’s a matter of time before the whole thing collapses and the scandals bleed into other denominations—other less structured denominations.
I think the issue with peodophilia is not so much the priesthood because anyone out can be an abuser, it is the idea of putting children and adults together in a congregation for a long a period of time that contribute to it ie facilitate it.
Any large congregating together in the name of anything risk getting abused.
Single sex schools and other institutions are prone to abuse.
There has got to be lessons learned and changes are long due and no one out there is suggesting anything which I find even more concerning.
What is one doing about it is the question because it is not going to go away anytime soon.
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Old 08-28-2018, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
I think the issue with peodophilia is not so much the priesthood because anyone out can be an abuser, it is the idea of putting children and adults together in a congregation for a long a period of time that contribute to it ie facilitate it.
Any large congregating together in the name of anything risk getting abused.
Single sex schools and other institutions are prone to abuse.
There has got to be lessons learned and changes are long due and no one out there is suggesting anything which I find even more concerning.
What is one doing about it is the question because it is not going to go away anytime soon.

Don't agree with you here Nacia. Yes, paedophilia can happen anywhere - but its existence in the priesthood has been swept under the carpet to avoid church scandal. The other issue is the guilt and sense of blame that a priest can project on the victim - a reverence for the priest is established within the cloisters of the church before abuse starts - the victim feeling powerless against the might of the church machine and the established holy persona of the abuser.

The word paedophile is taken from the Greek term 'pedagogue' which means tutor or mentor. In ancient Greece, it was the norm for a young man to be tucked under the wing of a male mentor - sexual submission expected from the boy as part of the traditional arrangement of education. This attitude of superiority and rights over a student or novice is still alive and well within the church (in some, not all cases) and Britain's illustrious boarding schools.

The Catholic church potently maunfactures guilt, shame, humility, obedience and forebearance - creating a culture where abuse can thrive and its secrets kept unspoken within those walls.
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