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Gods and Guns

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  #91  
Old 04-03-2016, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Actually, I don't think the OP was about gods or guns, but about our willingness to jump into an argument whilst not knowing all the answers, our intractability in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and the futility of it all anyway.
You're right. And I just might have missed the point of the OP.

Or it could have been a backhanded attempt at something. Otherwise, why name God and Guns in specific?

If it was "why are people so intractable on certain subjects" then why mention God and Guns?

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  #92  
Old 04-03-2016, 04:38 PM
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Perhaps wyf is plugging us for info for a mystical trilogy!

I'd prefer that the gods are strapped with hand-blasters when they, well, finally show to clean up government corruption.
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  #93  
Old 04-04-2016, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I view my rights as coming from God,
Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
If it was "why are people so intractable on certain subjects" then why mention God and Guns?
Becaause those are two subjects where people are most intractable, as your posts prove.

And here you use one to justify the other. One fallacy (IMHO) justifying another.

And it seems that rather than looking at other countries where guns are restricted and murder rates are significantly lower, you prefer to see a situation where more guns perpetuate the need for more guns even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

What would it take for you to consider the opposite argument? Is there anything?
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  #94  
Old 04-04-2016, 05:41 AM
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So are murder rates lower or gun related murder rates lower?

Too my south (Mexico) legal private ownership of guns is extremely limited. Is the murder rate higher or lower than the US?

Switzerland has a high rate of gun ownership and a very low murder rate.

I have actually given my faith and my positions on guns a lot of thought, and the arguments I've seen offered aren't convincing.

How do you convince someone to renounce faith? Why would you want someone to renounce their faith?
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Last edited by Mohican; 04-04-2016 at 05:44 AM.. Reason: is my auto correct posses of something?
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  #95  
Old 04-04-2016, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
So are murder rates lower or gun related murder rates lower?
Both. You have more guns and murder than Pakistan, where the Taliban shoot schoolkids for fun.

Maybe it's not guns, maybe you're all just sick in the head.

How about this question:

Switzerland has loads of guns.

The US has loads of guns.

Why don't the Swiss murder each other with the same alarming regularity that you guys do? What is the inherent sickness in your society?

Let's forget guns, they don't kill people (according to the NRA), people do. Wht are there so many more murderers in the US than anywhere else?
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  #96  
Old 04-05-2016, 02:49 AM
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Maybe it's not guns, maybe you're all just sick in the head.
Hey, I don't even own a handgun. My shrink, however, does have a huge collection and stockpiled ammo...

Why don't the Swiss murder each other with the same alarming regularity that you guys do? What is the inherent sickness in your society?
I don't think that's a fair comparison, especially since population, and perhaps urban density, are worlds apart. Consider the disparity between the two Countries in terms of ethnic diversity also.

Let's forget guns, they don't kill people (according to the NRA), people do. Wht are there so many more murderers in the US than anywhere else?
Take out a few cities with my aforementioned reasons and the murder rate per 100,000 capita plummets.
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  #97  
Old 04-05-2016, 10:11 PM
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Welcome back, Mike, and Bagit has raised a point that is seldom considered: Does the US as a whole have a problem with gun-related violence or are there pockets where shootings are so prevalent that the numbers are skewed for the whole country?

I think the reason most Americans don't get too excited about guns is the fact that, for most Americans, guns aren't a problem. The violence seems to be concentrated in certain areas and if anything is to be done about it I think those areas and the reasons for their troubles need to be examined separately from the rest of the country.

You don't solve a problem in Detroit or Los Angelos by taking guns away from people in Eureka or Missoula.
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  #98  
Old 04-06-2016, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Welcome back, Mike, and Bagit has raised a point that is seldom considered: Does the US as a whole have a problem with gun-related violence or are there pockets where shootings are so prevalent that the numbers are skewed for the whole country?

I think the reason most Americans don't get too excited about guns is the fact that, for most Americans, guns aren't a problem. The violence seems to be concentrated in certain areas and if anything is to be done about it I think those areas and the reasons for their troubles need to be examined separately from the rest of the country.

You don't solve a problem in Detroit or Los Angelos by taking guns away from people in Eureka or Missoula.
I had mentioned this before in this thread.

Rudy Guiliani hit on this in 2008 during his (failed) Republican Primary bid, and his response was that it wasn't an national epidemic but a rather focused problem, and he made the statement that there might be areas in the nation that needed disarming but it wasn't true about all the nation. I was initially taken aback by this, and still don't see disarming as any real solution but I now realize it took a type of political courage to say that.
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  #99  
Old 04-08-2016, 01:51 AM
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it takes a lot of courage for any US politician to suggest that not all guns are good, IMHO.
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  #100  
Old 04-08-2016, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
How do you convince someone to renounce faith? Why would you want someone to renounce their faith?
Its only your faith in guns I'm questioning, aside from your assertion that god says you can have them.

and you didn't answer my question. Can you imagine any circumstances in the future where you might agree to limits on gun ownership?

what about plans to microchip guns so they can only be fired by their owner?
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  #101  
Old 04-08-2016, 06:04 PM
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I did answer - can I imagine any circumstance where I'd surrender my guns - and I said no. At least not willingly. you can go back and read my full response

I think plans to microchip guns so that they can only be fired by there owners are stupid- with the potential exception of police etc having a gun that cant be fired if a criminal wrassles it away from her (the cop)
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  #102  
Old 04-08-2016, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
it takes a lot of courage for any US politician to suggest that not all guns are good, IMHO.
No it doesn't. It's expected of liberal politicians in urban areas.
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  #103  
Old 04-08-2016, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
Its only your faith in guns I'm questioning, aside from your assertion that god says you can have them.
Since we are by choice getting away from "why are certain beliefs so tightly held" and into "why don't you give your guns to the nice guy from the government:

Guns are devices, and not inherently good or evil. Mass shooting aside (and then you have to determine what is a mass shooting) the overall number of gun deaths and gun homicides is typically going down each year.

Homicides involving hammers, ballbats and clubs are going up. And more people are killed with blunt objects than are killed with "assault rifles" Perhaps we should issue hammer permits to carpenters, or make them lock them up before they come home. And baseball bats should stay locked up at the ball park. Easy access to ball bats is leading to increase in ball bat crime.

If "it's for the children" then we need to examine backyard swimming pools, bathtubs and five gallon buckets...

You're much more likely to die from medical malpractice than from a GSW. (Gun Shot Wound)

MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving report that there is an average of 27 deaths per day in the US. Almost 10,000 deaths / year attributable to drunks behind the wheel. So with both homicide and accidental shootings combined, gun deaths are slightly above Drunk Driving Deaths. Most sources peg 1993 as the peak year for gun violence in the US.

In my corner of the world, as a volunteer Firefighter and EMT I have seen way more DWI deaths than gun deaths - including homicides.

I don't view private ownership of guns as the problem that you do.
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  #104  
Old 04-09-2016, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
Its only your faith in guns I'm questioning, aside from your assertion that god says you can have them.

and you didn't answer my question. Can you imagine any circumstances in the future where you might agree to limits on gun ownership?

what about plans to microchip guns so they can only be fired by their owner?
But there are limits on gun ownership, wyf, quite a few of them.

And microchipped guns are a long way from being 100% reliable, which is the percentage you're looking for when it's life or death.
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  #105  
Old 04-12-2016, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Since we are by choice getting away from "why are certain beliefs so tightly held" and into "why don't you give your guns to the nice guy from the government:
Not at all. The argument is on certain beliefs so tightly held, and owning guns seems to be top of your list.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Guns are devices, and not inherently good or evil. Mass shooting aside (and then you have to determine what is a mass shooting) the overall number of gun deaths and gun homicides is typically going down each year.
Tired old argument. Guns don't kill people... Hey, look at something else. Rohypnol doesn't rape people... so why is the drug not available over the counter?

Drunk drivers kill less people than guns, so why is it not legal to drive drunk? Cars don't kill people...

Your arguments are all smoke and mirrors based on your personal want. You want a gun therefore guns are benign. Everything else is a problem. And if everything else is a problem, why bother controlling anything?

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I don't view private ownership of guns as the problem that you do.
You choose not to.
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  #106  
Old 04-13-2016, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
...Tired old argument. Guns don't kill people... Hey, look at something else. Rohypnol doesn't rape people... so why is the drug not available over the counter?
Because it has no legitimate uses. Has anyone ever stopped someone from roofing someone by pulling out their own roofies?

Originally Posted by wyf View Post
Drunk drivers kill less people than guns, so why is it not legal to drive drunk? Cars don't kill people...
By the same logic, guns should be legal because they kill less people than disease.

Originally Posted by wyf View Post
Your arguments are all smoke and mirrors based on your personal want. You want a gun therefore guns are benign. Everything else is a problem. And if everything else is a problem, why bother controlling anything?
I'll give yourself a moment to compose yourself, wyf (I'm sorry -- as I read that paragraph I had an image of someone starting out steely-eyed but still rational, then degenerating into Archie Bunker and Edith).

Yer paragraph didn't make no sense.
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  #107  
Old 04-14-2016, 09:21 AM
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Wyf - I can make the argument that "gun deaths" are going down every year in the US since their peak in 1993.

Lets look at several key points
1. More people own more guns than 1993 in the U.S. This number really started to climb in November 2008 and purchase of firearms and ammunition is steady.
2. Overall gun deaths are...down.

so if the amount of people owning guns in the US goes up and the amount of guns in existence goes up, and gun deaths are down then the issue is now what you think it is.

And then let's ask ourselves - where do the mass shooting that get Wyf so upset occur? Do they typically happen where other people have guns or do mass shootings occur when victims are not armed and can not defend themselves? (efficiently)
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