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  #31  
Old 03-26-2016, 05:24 PM
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Or for those with more of an inclination for home/self rule we could always allow ourselves to split into smaller units.

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Old 03-26-2016, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Or for those with more of an inclination for home/self rule we could always allow ourselves to split into smaller units.

And lose all that tax revenue? Naw, that won't work.
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Old 03-27-2016, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
And lose all that tax revenue? Naw, that won't work.
Exactly. The taxes pay for all the military's toys and guns. It pays for the protection, the decisions made (or lack thereof). So basically WE own all that shit.
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  #34  
Old 03-27-2016, 06:30 AM
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If you believe you own it, try and take it.

I certainly agree that you paid for it, but that's not ownership.
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  #35  
Old 03-27-2016, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican
Or for those with more of an inclination for home/self rule we could always allow ourselves to split into smaller units.

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
And lose all that tax revenue? Naw, that won't work.
That's why it wasn't allowed to work the first time around.

If a person views the current course as unsustainable long term - and that if there is a economic or social cataclysm that would split the current nation into smaller republics (or think "balkanization" ) then the wisest and most humane course is to let the states choose who they might want to align with prior to this event happening.
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  #36  
Old 03-27-2016, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
If you believe you own it, try and take it.

I certainly agree that you paid for it, but that's not ownership.
That's like people dropping by our volunteer firestation, and insisting that because they pay fire department levies, that they should get to drive the firetrucks when we have open houses or festivals.

These people seriously think that because they pay taxes that they should get to take the trucks for a spin.
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  #37  
Old 03-27-2016, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
These people seriously think that because they pay taxes that they should get to take the trucks for a spin.
There's a word for that. When things that the community has paid for belong to the people of the community. It's communism.

Which is, incidentally, one of my favourite words because it's a sort of, err, not quite onomatopoeia. In communism all the letters are the same height ---- there are no tall letters and no tail letters. Everything has to conform to the regular size. Is there a name for that? Onomatopoeia of ideas or concepts rather than sounds?
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  #38  
Old 03-27-2016, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
If you believe you own it, try and take it.

I certainly agree that you paid for it, but that's not ownership.
I would never take on such a venture.

But I disagree that it's not a form of ownership. Everyone who pays into federal taxes has a stake in how the Country moves forward. Does "our" opinion really matter though?
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Old 03-28-2016, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Bagit View Post
But I disagree that it's not a form of ownership. Everyone who pays into federal taxes has a stake in how the Country moves forward. Does "our" opinion really matter though?
Would you be interested in a political-philosophical discussion about the meaning of "ownership"?

I'm very tempted to reply along those lines, because the distinction between who paid for a thing and who owns the thing interests me a great deal, but I'm conscious that we're drifting farther and farther from Wyf's original intent in starting this thread. If such a discussion does hold any interest for you then we might do better to fork the topic and talk about that separately. "In which Non Serviam explains and defends his anarchism".
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  #40  
Old 03-28-2016, 03:16 AM
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It could be an interesting topic, Non. I agree that this thread is drifting into a slightly different category. Not totally off base, but drifting.
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  #41  
Old 03-28-2016, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
In all Western democracies everywhere, armed resistance against the government can only succeed if the military refuses to intervene. And if the military refuses to intervene, then any substantial armed uprising can't fail. This applies irrespective of whether the "armed resistance" is equipped with machineguns or sticks and stones.

Any pretence to the contrary is self-delusion.
Fortunately, although it seems like that sometimes, the US Government is not made up entirely of 'thems'. If and when the SHTF and American military force is turned on its own populace, I believe there will be large numbers of military/law enforcement personnel who will remember their humanity and bring part of that force to our side, one way or another.

Originally Posted by Bagit View Post
Good point, but what's really weird is that this force, backed by NATO's power, can't defeat a bunch of redneck radical Islamists operating from Toyota pickups. It's mindboggling.
Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
It can, though. It totally can. The commanders won't accept civilian casualties so they won't issue the necessary orders, but the capability is there. Annoy the politicians enough and it could be used.
I would hope that we'd never see a world in which our leaders would unleash a horror on us, their brothers and neighbors, that they are loath to inflict on other peoples, but a belief in that kind of pie-in-the-sky idealism went out the window, for me, a long time ago.

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
We could kill or imprison all the non-compliant...
California has tried that for years. Now, all of our new prisons are bursting at the seams with youngsters who, after being sent to prison as fresh-faced boys caught selling a little weed, are now hardened gladiators and being released wholesale on an unsuspecting populace.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Or for those with more of an inclination for home/self rule we could always allow ourselves to split into smaller units.
California has been trying to do that for years. It's usually the smaller units which want to break away; they are quickly shut down by the larger units which benefit from the use of the smaller unit's resources/tax money.

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
Would you be interested in a political-philosophical discussion about the meaning of "ownership"?
Yes.

Originally Posted by Bagit View Post
It could be an interesting topic, Non. I agree that this thread is drifting into a slightly different category. Not totally off base, but drifting.
Some of the best conversations spring from totally different topics but, yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing that line of thought picked up in another thread.
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  #42  
Old 03-28-2016, 07:24 AM
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IMO, there has been seven years of marginalizing, demoralizing and dismissing the type of people in the U.S. Armed Services that would not obey an order to crush the civilian populace.

And "the US would never and will never use it's army against the populace because it's forbidden by the Constitution" is a patently false notion.

It started with George Washington (at Hamilton's urging) marching militia into Western PA to make sure those Scots and German Farmers paid their tax when they distilled whiskey. (many of whom were totally unaware of the new Constitution...and it's new taxing powers.....) (Another note, since the Governor of PA had asked Washington to stand down Washington should have stood down....

Going forward about 120 years, Governors were pretty happy to used the Army to quell Miners strikes in the Appalachians.

And with operations in the Big Sandbox winding down, more and more military equipment is winding up in various law enforcement agencies at local, state, and Federal levels. It's a bit otherworldly to watch a nearby large urban Police Department zipping around in the winter in MRAPS because "they get around in the snow".....
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  #43  
Old 03-28-2016, 07:34 AM
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I've seen the same type of 'weeding out' going on locally, in law enforcement, but the boys I know would throw over in an instant, once a certain line is crossed. It remains to be seen where that line lies in reality. Hopefully we'll never know.
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  #44  
Old 03-28-2016, 07:39 AM
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Locally, I have no doubt about my County Sheriff and his deputies "doing the right thing".

I no longer have the same faith in my current Governor.
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  #45  
Old 03-29-2016, 01:21 AM
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Well the thread has gone off on a tangent,but an interesting one.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I no longer have the same faith in my current Governor.
Then surely you have a constitutional right to shoot him?

I get that you have a constitutional right to own weapons, for the theoretical overthrowing of corrupt and oppressive government, but does anyone actually believe that to be a viable option? Could it ever realistically happen?

Bearing in mind that maybe 50% of the population will always support the government they voted for, maybe 25% will prefer the status quo, and won't make waves, 20% wouldn't want to get involved in a civil war anyway (wild guesses!), you're left with people like the Michigan Militia who could probably do a bit of local damage but couldn't launch a viable civil war.

Is your constitution based on an outdated nonsense that needs rewriting?

I also get that some feel unsafe without the means to defend their homes and families, but I saw some statistics the other day that would make me feel even more unsafe (cant remember them, but here's the gist):

Mass shootings. Kids shooting kids by accident with the family gun. Kids shoting parents, and parents shooting kids by accident. The fact that you're more likely to be shot by someone you know, or even with your own gun, than a supposed mugger or home invader.

I don't want to take Mohicans Bison gun away (I hear Bison can be quite damaging to ones garden) but when will people decide that enough is enough?
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Old 03-29-2016, 06:16 AM
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Mass shooting get a lot of reporting, but numbers wise they are really small .

Any thought of "gun control" to stop "Mass shootings" supposes that people won't find guns outside of legal channels.

If the 2nd amendment is to allow the violent overthrow of bad actors in government, then the 2nd amendment to the Constitution For These United States should have stated that a bit more clearly.

A large percentage of early 'Murricans did not was a Standing Army, or if there was to be a Standing Army they did not want it to be large. To that end, the early preference was local and state militia - which was in practicality every able bodied man between say 18 and 40 years old.

It is important that there was nothing "in the negative" - the purpose was that the "People" could keep and bear arms without Federal stipulations.

The biggest part that Modernist misuse is the phrase "well regulated militia" - and they look at this in modern use of the term regulated (which goes with rules and regulations) and thus come up with the idea that Congress can say which type of arms can be owned by the private citizenry.

If you go back to December 15th, 1791 a well regulated militia would have meant regular, or consistent.

A well regulated local militia would have
1. as any guns of a common caliber as possible - which in the age prior to mass production could be an issue.
2. Every Militia man would carry XXX amount of powder and lead, extra flints, etc
3. Every militia man would carry X amount of canteens, food, cooking gear, Tarp, blanket, knapsack, etc.

4. Writing of the time period lead to the reason that there is some ambiguity in the 2nd amendment - the states were much more powerful and local laws applied, and most men who were of "the founding class" thought themselves to be virtuous, so if "virtuous" men constituted government, why be that specific?
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Old 03-29-2016, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Mass shooting get a lot of reporting, but numbers wise they are really small .
Really? Small must be relative. The average mass shooting in the US (defined as being 4 or more victims, not including the shooter) equates to the total number of people killed by guns in the UK in a year.

And you guys reportedly had 1052 of these incidents in 1066 days. That's a lot of bodies to bury, many of them children. And most, if not all, carried out with legally owned firearms.

How the hell can anyone with an iota of common sense or compassion demand to uphold an archaic and outdated right that allows this to happen?

I didn't want to make this thread about gun control, specifically but it highlights my original question. How can you in all conscience uphold the ability of anyone, with virtually no restriction, to own the means to do this?

Put a price on it. How many lives are your bison gun worth? How many mass shootings have to happen before you admit that guns are a serious problem, not a viable solution? How about if there was a school massacre every day? Two a day? Ten? What will it take for you to change your opinion?

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Any thought of "gun control" to stop "Mass shootings" supposes that people won't find guns outside of legal channels.
Of course. But is the best option to admit defeat and let gun ownership go unchecked? Or should something be done to at least make things more difficult?

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
A large percentage of early 'Murricans did not was a Standing Army, or if there was to be a Standing Army they did not want it to be large.
They're all dead now. Their opinion doesn't count.
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Old 03-29-2016, 10:47 AM
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Having Rights is messy, and if it's a true right is never becomes archaic.

and as for minimalizing the standing army, I join the founders, as do many. A standing army is havoc waiting to happen.


Part of the answer is that there might appear to be a lot of these incidents, specially the way it's reported to you. Gun crime, personal attacks have went down, down, down, down, down since concealed carry became wide spread. Take guns away from the citizens and crime would go up.

Homicides due to Bison Rifles - about zero every year

Homicides due to true machine guns - class III bATFe weaopons - Zero


Homicides due to "assault weopons" thar are really just semi auto rifles - again - very low

Most gun related homicide is Urban and handgun related

Also - a lot of time suicides involving guns are hidden in the homicide numbers - most people determined to commit suicide will find a way, with or without guns.

It would take some very draconian measures, utilizing armed forces to pacify large swaths of the public, and a very large paramilitary presence to achieve disarmament of those predisposed to commit gun crimes.

If someone decides enough is enough and we'll come for your guns then there will be a very violent time. who knows how long it would last and what would be left in the aftermath.

Me, I'll just look after me and mine, aka family and folk and you won't have to worry about me.
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Old 03-29-2016, 12:39 PM
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The US has a standing army because it's learned the hard way that it needs one. Modern military kit needs a lot of training to use, and the next time there's a World War, you might not get a few years of recruitment and training time while Britain and the Commonwealth defend democracy.

The idea that crime is higher in a disarmed society is certainly widely-believed in the United States, and that's a belief that would benefit from a careful comparison with the data. To be valid, that comparison should be conducted by a statistically literate person who isn't in the pay or ideological thrall of the NRA or the anti-gun lobby. To whit, a foreigner. (Efficient, unbiased, rigorous mathematics. This, ladies and gentlemen, is the excuse for the Swiss. Without that, the bastards would be totally insufferable and we'd be forced to obliterate them; we can get chocolate from Belgium.)
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Old 03-29-2016, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Having Rights is messy, and if it's a true right is never becomes archaic.

and as for minimalizing the standing army, I join the founders, as do many. A standing army is havoc waiting to happen.


Part of the answer is that there might appear to be a lot of these incidents, specially the way it's reported to you. Gun crime, personal attacks have went down, down, down, down, down since concealed carry became wide spread. Take guns away from the citizens and crime would go up.

Homicides due to Bison Rifles - about zero every year

Homicides due to true machine guns - class III bATFe weaopons - Zero


Homicides due to "assault weopons" thar are really just semi auto rifles - again - very low

Most gun related homicide is Urban and handgun related

Also - a lot of time suicides involving guns are hidden in the homicide numbers - most people determined to commit suicide will find a way, with or without guns.

It would take some very draconian measures, utilizing armed forces to pacify large swaths of the public, and a very large paramilitary presence to achieve disarmament of those predisposed to commit gun crimes.

If someone decides enough is enough and we'll come for your guns then there will be a very violent time. who knows how long it would last and what would be left in the aftermath.

Me, I'll just look after me and mine, aka family and folk and you won't have to worry about me.


So, we could drastically reduce our gun death stats if we exclude 'suicide by gun' and get rid of those pesky urban people? By the way, none of us are unaware that 'urban' is code for black and Latino.
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Old 03-29-2016, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
The US has a standing army because it's learned the hard way that it needs one. Modern military kit needs a lot of training to use, and the next time there's a World War, you might not get a few years of recruitment and training time while Britain and the Commonwealth defend democracy.

The US has always had a standing Army, I should distill the question into - what size does it need to be? And having a larger than necessary standing Army has led to the "USA World Police " It has led to squandering a lot of people and resources.

How much of this "sophisticated Kit" is beyond the range of a Reservist? - which is a glorified replacement for militia? Other than fighter and perhaps some bomber pilots, the various reserve units provided a lot of pilots, doctors, nurses, firefighters, some combat units, engineering units, etc. The actual combat portion of the current armed forces is probably 10% of total numbers .



Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
The idea that crime is higher in a disarmed society is certainly widely-believed in the United States, and that's a belief that would benefit from a careful comparison with the data. To be valid, that comparison should be conducted by a statistically literate person who isn't in the pay or ideological thrall of the NRA or the anti-gun lobby. To whit, a foreigner. (Efficient, unbiased, rigorous mathematics. This, ladies and gentlemen, is the excuse for the Swiss. Without that, the bastards would be totally insufferable and we'd be forced to obliterate them; we can get chocolate from Belgium.)

I know people can bend figures, but a lot of violent crime has been reduced with the introduction of CCW. Honest people on either side of this issue often have difficulty finding facts/correlation. The opposite is untrue - WIdespread concealed carry and now more acceptance of Open Carry has not led to the "Wild West " scenarios so hysterically predicted.

Many large urban areas in the US have had about a century of restrictions for the ownership and use of it's residents. Of those, I can only think of one - New York City that has had strict gun laws and a relatively low homicide rate.

Upstanding Citizens owning guns and carrying them is not the problem. Gun crimes are committed by criminals and what seems to be a growing population of mentally unstable people. That's an offshoot topic - why we have abandoned the mentally ill and what effects it has had.
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  #52  
Old 03-29-2016, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
How much of this "sophisticated Kit" is beyond the range of a Reservist? - which is a glorified replacement for militia?
I'll assume that the US military kit is similar to the British gear with which I'm familiar. (It's a fairly safe assumption, I should think; we buy US-made weapons and you buy British-made ones.)

The Javelin ATGM, a shoulder-launched infantry anti-tank weapon, costs GB£50,000 (which is US$80,000) to fire. The Starstreak SAM, a shoulder-launched infantry anti-aircraft weapon, costs GB£45,000 to fire. These are good prices. They'll destroy millions of dollars worth of kit.

Maybe a reservist can learn to fire those things, but imagine what it costs to train one. At those prices, I can fully understand why it's better to have professional soldiers, who are less likely to miss, and who you can monitor and guarantee will be available when you need them.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Many large urban areas in the US have had about a century of restrictions for the ownership and use of it's residents. Of those, I can only think of one - New York City that has had strict gun laws and a relatively low homicide rate.

Upstanding Citizens owning guns and carrying them is not the problem. Gun crimes are committed by criminals and what seems to be a growing population of mentally unstable people. That's an offshoot topic - why we have abandoned the mentally ill and what effects it has had.
With respect, I said "a disarmed society". I didn't say "one slightly disarmed city, surrounded by places with unfettered access to firearms, without searches on entering the city."

I live in a disarmed society with about 25% of the US homicide rate.

More Americans are shot by toddlers than by terrorists.
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  #53  
Old 03-29-2016, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Having Rights is messy, and if it's a true right is never becomes archaic.
That assumes that the right to own guns is a 'true' right. I'd argue that.

You didn't answer my question, though. How bad would things have to get before you decided that your right to own guns no longer outweighed the rights of victims to stay alive?
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Old 03-30-2016, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
So why are we as people so intractable, so unwilling to accept that our opinion may not be the right one, but still so willing to join in the bunfight, knowing that the result will be a big fat nothing?
It's a defense mechanism. The more people feel like their beliefs or ideas are being questioned or challenged, the harder they're going to dig in their heels.

I think it's about people trying to convince themselves that they're in the right more than anything else. More importantly, if you can get in some kind of dig or get a reaction or trip someone up, even just a little, then you can feel better about yourself and what you believe, even momentarily. If there's any consensus or agreement, so much the better. People love the approval that comes from preaching to the choir. So a lot of these "bunfights" are ego-driven.

No one's ever going to admit they're wrong or that they could possible change their mind. Look at the phrase people so often use on the internet when they are inextricably backed into a corner by facts and a well-made case: Fair enough. Can it get any more noncommittal than that?

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Old 03-30-2016, 07:26 AM
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Fair enough, Binx, fair enough!
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Old 03-30-2016, 07:29 AM
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Ha ha.
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Old 03-30-2016, 12:08 PM
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The arguments about a 'disarmed society' are meaningless here, Non. As Mohican has pointed out, to achieve that status would require the locking down of the entire populace, a huge military presence performing door-to-door, attic to basement, every nook and cranny type searches, nation-wide, all at once, and then, what about the millions of square miles of creek and canyon, mountains with caves and crevices, woods that go on forever?

You can't just threaten everyone and expect them to turn them in -- this nation was founded on independence and thumbing your nose at the Government.

The unique position we find ourselves in, that foreigners don't take into account, is that our nation came into being and was developed at the same time as the modern firearm. The two are inexorably entwined, in our culture and in our minds. There is no way to eliminate the very thing which made us what we are. Others may look on in horror, but we were born of the gun and will die of the gun. That's just the way we are.

And Binx, personally, I like testing my beliefs. I may seem adamant about something I really only feel luke-warm about, but only to elicit the strongest response, giving me more information on the subject. If I find that I can be convinced of something contrary to what I believe, I am appreciative of the effort that someone took to do so.

I hate being wrong, and so my arguments are a search for what is right.
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Old 03-30-2016, 12:18 PM
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No one's ever going to admit they're wrong or that they could possible change their mind.
Very sweeping point made there, Binx. Are you sure you want to include every last one of us?
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Old 03-30-2016, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
And Binx, personally, I like testing my beliefs. I may seem adamant about something I really only feel luke-warm about, but only to elicit the strongest response, giving me more information on the subject. If I find that I can be convinced of something contrary to what I believe, I am appreciative of the effort that someone took to do so.

I hate being wrong, and so my arguments are a search for what is right.
wyf asked the question. I made an attempt it answer it. I followed her lead by using the generalizing language, so I realize what I've said doesn't apply to EVERYONE.

On the other hand, it may be true that you appreciate it when you're convinced of something contrary to what you believe. But I'll believe it when I see it. That's so overwhelmingly NOT how it goes down that I can't help but be skeptical. What you're saying is what everyone wants to believe about themselves.

And there certainly are more thorough and efficient ways of gathering information than arguing on an internet forum with a bunch of non-experts.

I don't hate being wrong. Why would I? Because if there's one thing I've learned in life is that I'm often wrong. Recognizing that makes me a lot more more receptive to differing views and it makes life in general a whole lot easier.
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Old 03-30-2016, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bagit View Post
Very sweeping point made there, Binx. Are you sure you want to include every last one of us?
See above.

BTW, that's another thing that can make internet debates so tedious. Not qualifying every statement to everyone's satisfaction. Of course, there are exceptions to everything. Do we really need to state that every time we want to make point?

Last edited by Binx B; 03-30-2016 at 01:03 PM..
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