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  #31  
Old 03-03-2018, 06:35 PM
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And so you don't like Kaylee -- but do you at least admire her?

I think you read it wrong. Kaylee is not a virgin. But the boy she slept with was. Shes's a "seasoned" player. And don't we women all admire a"maneater"?

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  #32  
Old 03-06-2018, 03:00 AM
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For me there's far too much dialogue in the first and third chapter. Sorry, but I just got bored reading it. Then the part where she was told her mother was in hospital just didn't ring true. Surely that would be a headmaster/principals job, not the school secretary. Then she's told she's excused from lessons and can go to the hospital. I think when your mother's in a coma that's pretty much a given.

I like the writing overall, but i didn't like your main character, unfortunately.
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  #33  
Old 03-06-2018, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
For me there's far too much dialogue in the first and third chapter. Sorry, but I just got bored reading it. Then the part where she was told her mother was in hospital just didn't ring true. Surely that would be a headmaster/principals job, not the school secretary. Then she's told she's excused from lessons and can go to the hospital. I think when your mother's in a coma that's pretty much a given.

I like the writing overall, but i didn't like your main character, unfortunately.
You were bored with the dialogue, but still you proceeded to read all 3,000 words of it? Interesting.

Challenging who would give Kaylee the message is a great criticism. I might have to re-write that section with a principal. Thanks.

If you're interested in sharing, I'd love to hear why you didn't like Kaylee.

And thanks for reading and commenting!
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  #34  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:32 AM
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Yo
u were bored with the dialogue, but still you proceeded to read all 3,000 words of it? Interesting.
I had nothing else better to do.

I think the reason I didn't like the OP was she's just not very likeable. No particular reason why. She doesn't make me feel very sympathetic towards her.
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  #35  
Old 03-09-2018, 03:04 AM
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Heh -- yeah it's a critique forum. Sometimes people will plow through 3000 words to that end. Doesn't necessarily mean anyone would want do it otherwise...
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  #36  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:50 AM
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@Rincewind,

Isn't there a difference between finding a character likeable versus finding them sympathetic? Can't we find an unlikeable character sympathetic, especially if we understand why they are the way they are?

Like I mentioned above, I've been concerned that Kaylee isn't very likeable ... and that may be true. But you don't sympathize with someone who has a deep wound because they were abandoned by their parents since they were very young, and are furthermore teased about that fact?

That was part of my plan to make her sympathetic, but maybe it failed with you.

I had a friend's 17 year old daughter (the market for this book) read the first chapter and a half, and I asked, "So did she hate the character?"

"No," he said to my surprise.

My aim is to make her the type of character young readers would secretly envy. And we don't usually like people we envy, do we? Don't we hate to see them get what we wish we could have for ourselves? But don't we still look up to them and admire them even if they're a total bitch or asshole?

I recently saw "Erin Brockovich" again. And I would say she falls into this kind of category.

@Myers,

With myself, I find I give a piece about 200-300 words to interest me. If I'm not hooked in that period, I stop reading and usually don't comment. I suspect most people are that way too. I heard of a study where scientists tracked peoples' attention reading a newspaper. As soon as they didn't like what they were reading or disagreed with it, there eyes would flash to the next headline. And so on. I reckon it's the same on forums like these. If a piece doesn't grab us in the beginning, we move on.

I remember reading an amazing piece on here years ago (forget the user's name). It was about 10,000 words. Knowing it's length, I started thinking off it would be a chore. But soon enough my perspective changed as I read, found it compelling, and spent the next half hour reading to the end.

I think readers only continue to read to the end of a long piece if it's genuinely interesting to them (unless they're reading specifically to find and point out all the flaws, mistakes and errors).

And don't actions speak louder than words? I've learned to listen to actions and ignore the words. I've found this especially true with men who are into dating -- it's not what a woman says that matters; it's what she does, and sometimes her words contradict her actions. Then which do you listen to?

But all that I aside, I'm disappointed you didn't actually comment on my chapters themselves. You're a good writer yourself. Certainly, you must have something constructive to say.
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  #37  
Old 03-09-2018, 07:47 AM
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Don't overthink it, man. I just thought it was kind of funny -- like, "you said you were bored, AND YET, you read on. Interesting...

Seems like you were second guessing the comment for some reason or trying to get around that the guy said he was bored with it.

Otherwise, it's all too on the nose for me -- just not any subtext. It all feels over-explained. Maybe that's the YA is supposed to be?

Kaylee froze, immediately recognizing Scarlet’s voice. She stared at Sarah, a surge of anger zipping through the pit of her stomach. Throwing the stall door open, she stepped out to see blonde haired Scarlet in her designer clothes applying mascara to her long lashes in the mirror, like a model preparing for the catwalk. Her back was facing Kaylee. Two other girls looking like faded replicas of Scarlet stood at her sides.
Do people really freeze? I suppose they do sometimes, but it sounds cliche to me.

Does a model preparing for the catwalk really put on her makeup any different than anyone else? That seems forced.

And the context and dialog really should do the heavy lifting -- there shouldn't be any need to say "a surge of anger zipping through the pit of her stomach."

To me, it all feels like it needs to be dialed back -- but then again, I'm probably not your audience. The machinations of teenagers don't interest me too much -- except for my own teenager -- and I can't avoid that.
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  #38  
Old 03-09-2018, 07:58 PM
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For Kaylee to be sympathetic she needs to be pounded by life mercilessly, and through no fault of her own. She can have strength, deep down, but it has to be a last desperate effort. Otherwise she’s just another teenaged antagonist, and not the MC. She cannot.be vain, or openly challenge the status quo, or knowingly worldly, or any other strong shit until she is beaten down so hard she has no choice.

So far she’s a cunt, and not sympathetic at all. Abandoned by her parents has to show. Hated and persecuted has to show.

Think of her as a Christ. Honestly (HONESTLY) trying, but unable, until that moment you lift her up. Life has to take her on a ride. If she fucks, she GETS fucked. All her decisions have to be honest attempts at goodness, righteousness. Otherwise she’s just a twat, and we hate her.


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  #39  
Old 03-11-2018, 08:06 AM
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I disagree with most of your preachments -- but they're an interesting perspective.

And I think I've shown the affects on her being abandoned by her parents to a degree, but maybe I could include more.

But what about her makes you think she's a "twat" and a "cunt"? We haven't even found out yet that she's a turboslut who's screwing a dozen guys at the same time, including Kirk.
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  #40  
Old 03-11-2018, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
I disagree with most of your preachments -- but they're an interesting perspective.

And I think I've shown the affects on her being abandoned by her parents to a degree, but maybe I could include more.

But what about her makes you think she's a "twat" and a "cunt"? We haven't even found out yet that she's a turboslut who's screwing a dozen guys at the same time, including Kirk.


1) very little if any genuine emotion

2) inappropriately sarcastic

3) fights fire with fire (which is different from being strong. It’s just not a good strategy to make a character sympathetic).

4) inappropriate responses to real life tragedies. Lack of compassion or feeling for anyone but herself. Everything is about her.




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  #41  
Old 03-21-2018, 09:55 AM
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I just reposted a more polished version. Improvement?
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  #42  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:02 AM
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I don’t see it-says removed


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  #43  
Old 03-22-2018, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I don’t see it-says removed


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Definite improvement though.
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  #44  
Old 03-30-2018, 06:10 PM
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[Removed link]

Last edited by Konan; 04-20-2018 at 10:33 AM..
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  #45  
Old 03-30-2018, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
Yeah, I took the pages down from WB.

But if you want to read this or read more chapters, I've posted them here for the time being:

http://www.bookquery.com/


Just a quick construction/plumbing note: in your first sentence. The ceiling in all bathrooms is a hard lid, not panels. Otherwise people could peep into the restroom from above.


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  #46  
Old 03-30-2018, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Just a quick construction/plumbing note: in your first sentence. The ceiling in all bathrooms is a hard lid, not panels. Otherwise people could peep into the restroom from above.
I'm not sure that's accurate. But maybe I'll check out my local high school this week to double check. I seem to remember it being those tiled panels, like in office buildings.
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  #47  
Old 03-30-2018, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
I'm not sure that's accurate. But maybe I'll check out my local high school this week to double check. I seem to remember it being those tiled panels, like in office buildings.

Drop ceilings are not allowed in in restrooms. I do a lot of construction work. It may be that you’d find one here or there but it doesn’t meet building code. Just something I know from my day job.


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  #48  
Old 03-31-2018, 04:28 AM
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Thanks for the insights PB. I'm gonna go check out some schools washrooms. Could be that my high school did have panels, but maybe that's dated by now. Been 20 years this year. Got the reunion coming up in summer.

EDIT: I just did a little Googling, and it appears that "partition" is the word I'm really looking for, instead of "panel". Would you agree?

Last edited by Konan; 03-31-2018 at 04:44 AM..
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  #49  
Old 03-31-2018, 05:36 AM
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Partitions are the metal stalls that separate toilets from each other. I would use ceiling.


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  #50  
Old 03-31-2018, 06:13 AM
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I already used the word "ceiling" in the first paragraph. So I need to use a different word when I address it again.

What are ceilings made of, if not panels?

Though I'm not sure this is anything to worry about. I think panel works just fine here. Readers get what I mean.
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  #51  
Old 03-31-2018, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
I already used the word "ceiling" in the first paragraph. So I need to use a different word when I address it again.

What are ceilings made of, if not panels?

Though I'm not sure this is anything to worry about. I think panel works just fine here. Readers get what I mean.


New ones are made of drywall. Old ones lath and mortar or “plaster”


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  #52  
Old 04-20-2018, 10:34 AM
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If anyone read these chapters and would have been interested in reading more, PM and perhaps we can work something out.
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