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  #1  
Old 09-02-2016, 09:50 AM
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Howdy all.

John Lennon’s song “Imagine” could be seen as a Decoration of independence from Blind Religions, Predator Capitalists, Military Expansionists and Corrupt Politicians.

The next time you hear the song, really think about the lyrics, because you may discover that you want to join the ‘new movement’ and speak out against the evils of our world. Here’s the lyrics:

JOHN LENNON LYRICS

"Imagine"

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


Posted by wrc

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Old 09-02-2016, 08:27 PM
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Bless you, WRC there might be a cure for the blindness

Mark Chapter 10:
46And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples and a great number of people, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the highway side begging.

47And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

48And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

49And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.

50And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus.

51And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

52And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
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Old 09-02-2016, 08:38 PM
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Regardless of where a person stands on faith or lack of it, John Lennon's "Imagine" is lacking in strength or moral fiber.

I submit that the current age is filled with people that live the "Imagine" life and are poorer for it.

A life where a person is unwilling to drive his stake in the ground, and be willing to kill or die for faith, family, folk, perhaps hearth and home is hollow and empty.

A life without hunger? Not driving yourself to a better spot through your own efforts?(yes, it comes with help)

I imagine I'll say no thanks to the Imagine revolution...

As a song, its the atheist version of Kumbaya. And we know how people love to bag on Kumbaya....
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Last edited by Mohican; 09-02-2016 at 08:43 PM..
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:22 PM
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Well, Mohican, I guess your post puts you clearly in the 'faith army'. Quoting a human devised holy book isn't very useful to me.

Believe it or don't but I used to have cordial discussions with believers. And when I thought we had communicated and were parting they'd say something like "You're a good atheist. I'll pray for you." It really pissed me off because I realized there had been no communication. I had a similar response to you feeling free to quote scripture to me. It's all bullshit. So thanks, but no thanks. If you want to talk about anything of substance, I'm willing. wrc
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:57 PM
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Mohican, you must be on a roll tonight. Two back to back posts. Your post is quoted after mine.

Here's my take.

Religion is a business.. it insists on tithing of followers to avoid going to hell. That tithing makes the spiritual leaders and churchs rich. So rich that they can change the laws for a free ride by not paying their share in taxe. (There's now a Reglious movement underfoot to change the Constitution.)

The Religion business is selling Immortality Insurance. Which is a pretty damn good product because they never have to pay off since the dead can't tell us if they paid. This may be the biggest con job ever done.

As to the "Imagine" song, the group forming around it is exploding in membership. And as more people are educated they will join. I don't know how long it will take to make believers the minority, but if we don't commit species suicide in some Religious war, I know it will happen.

Too bad you can't see outside your dogma for you'd see the truth in the lyrics. wrc

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Regardless of where a person stands on faith or lack of it, John Lennon's "Imagine" is lacking in strength or moral fiber.

I submit that the current age is filled with people that live the "Imagine" life and are poorer for it.

A life where a person is unwilling to drive his stake in the ground, and be willing to kill or die for faith, family, folk, perhaps hearth and home is hollow and empty.

A life without hunger? Not driving yourself to a better spot through your own efforts?(yes, it comes with help)

I imagine I'll say no thanks to the Imagine revolution...

As a song, its the atheist version of Kumbaya. And we know how people love to bag on Kumbaya....
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:32 PM
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I don't know how anyone can claim to be a Christian yet criticise the sentiments in Lennon's Imagine. He was virtually paraphrasing Jesus. Or do you simply follow the complacent actions of your church, like most Christians?

Christ was a revolutionary. He sought to overturn the 'kill or be killed' savagery of the Old Testament. And he was willing to sacrifice his earthly life for it. He refused to kill, although he could have easily raised an army of followers. That's what Christ represents, Mohican. Are you sure you are a Christian?
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:33 AM
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Attempts at utopian, communal or collectivist living have always failed, even on a micro level.

Religion or no, human beings will always create power structures that will ultimately be corrupted by self-interest; that they will blame for all their woes. And eventually, attempts at any kind of enforced sharing will come at the end of a gun.

So while "Imagine" is a pleasant enough little pop-song, the lyrics are so much naive drivel. I am not inspired by wishful thinking or a laundry list of empty platitudes.
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Regardless of where a person stands on faith or lack of it, John Lennon's "Imagine" is lacking in strength or moral fiber.

I submit that the current age is filled with people that live the "Imagine" life and are poorer for it.

A life where a person is unwilling to drive his stake in the ground, and be willing to kill or die for faith, family, folk, perhaps hearth and home is hollow and empty.

A life without hunger? Not driving yourself to a better spot through your own efforts?(yes, it comes with help)

I imagine I'll say no thanks to the Imagine revolution...

As a song, its the atheist version of Kumbaya. And we know how people love to bag on Kumbaya....
This is probably closer to my take on it.
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Old 09-03-2016, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
I don't know how anyone can claim to be a Christian yet criticise the sentiments in Lennon's Imagine. He was virtually paraphrasing Jesus. Or do you simply follow the complacent actions of your church, like most Christians?

Christ was a revolutionary. He sought to overturn the 'kill or be killed' savagery of the Old Testament. And he was willing to sacrifice his earthly life for it. He refused to kill, although he could have easily raised an army of followers. That's what Christ represents, Mohican. Are you sure you are a Christian?
Let's look at Lenin's sappy drivel. From a Christian perspective there is much to criticize.

No Heaven
No Hell
Nothing to kill or die for

Let's evaluate
No Heaven - Wrong from a Christian perspective - There is a Heaven and you get their through acknowledging Christ's sacrifice

No Hell - Wrong from a Christian - There is a Hell, and you go there if you don't accept Christ's sacrifice

Nothing to Kill or DIe
1. Christ died for the sins of mankind.
2. Christ was not the total pacifist - yes he did not raise an army, but there was that time he drove the money changers out of the temple
3. In the Revelation, a Christian Army is raised.
4. When he ministers to Roman Military on several occasions he does not tell them to quit the Roman Army but tells them things like be happy with your pay and don't extort the populace.

Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Mohican. Are you sure you are a Christian?
Yes, and I've read the Holy Bible to a great extent.

Imagine - not paraphrasing Jesus

Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
complacent actions of your church, like most Christians?
The church is not a monolith, but that is not the point of this discussion. Complacent modern churches that fall in line with "Imagine" are operating outside of God's rule.
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Last edited by Mohican; 09-03-2016 at 06:43 AM..
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Old 09-03-2016, 06:38 AM
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Howdy flyingtart.

You have no idea how meaningful I found your post on Lennon’s song “Imagine”.

Instead of going to HS I spent 2 years selling a fancy King James Bible door to door. We traveled from city to city selling bibles. As a teenager, in strange towns with no friends, I spent many evenings along with our Bible. I read the Old Testament a couple of times and didn’t like all the gore and killing and never read it again. I’ve read the New Testament so many times that I lost track. The bible we sold had all of Jesus’ sayings underlined in red. And I spent many, many evenings reading nothing but his words. This lead to an admiration of Jesus and awe that this man would take on the Religious status quo.

Since then, and even today, I read Religious Scholars when they talk about Jesus. Some of them hijack Jesus to foster the power of Religion, but a few actually talk about him.

Here’s a few thoughts I came away with about the man known as Jesus.

He was a provocateur. And he walked the talk. When he overturned the money tables at the temple he was demonstrating that you don’t have to pay money to know God. In fact, he said you don’t need spiritual leaders because God was a personal God.

And, as usual, then and now, the status quo killed him. The status quo, then and now, was Organized Religion.

I don’t believe in an afterlife, but after reading your post I had a flash of Jesus and John Lennon singing “Imagine” together while John played a heavenly piano. It was a great moment for me.

Thanks for your post. I really appreciated it. Take care. wrc
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Old 09-03-2016, 06:50 AM
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Mohican, good morning to you. I see you're still pushing the dead Dogma. Too bad, for you. You're being left behind the stampede of enlightened thinkers. wrc
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Old 09-03-2016, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Let's look at Lenin's sappy drivel.
Lenin? I think you mean Lennon. Lenin was the evil commie Russian revolutionary. But it's instructive that you confused them.

So in Mohican's Christian heaven it's sappy drivel to dream of peace and non-violence? Oh, dear. To quote your favourite reading material, Jesus wept.
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:06 AM
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I purposefully put Lenin instead of Lennon. I'm glad you caught it.

Did you really read my post? Did you skip over that No Heaven, No Hell only sky is not Christian?

I think you focused on my statements on the portion of "Nothing to kill or die for" and missed the rest. Even if you don't agree with nothing to kill for is there nothing that you would die for?



If you have read anything I've posted then you should know that I'm not for war for its sake alone. I own no stock in Raytheon....

Jesus Christ and the New Testament that follows is not a total and complete repudiation of the Old Testament. Instances where the new teachings take precedence over the Old Testament are specific.
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:06 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

It's a youtube video concerning the origins of religion. I can't vouch for the veracity in total, but I have read some of the things he says in other places. It's pretty interesting stuff and, if correct, sheds some light on the figure of Jesus Christ. Has some relevance to this discussion since someone earlier used Christ in their argument.
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I purposefully put Lenin instead of Lennon. I'm glad you caught it.

Did you really read my post? Did you skip over that No Heaven, No Hell only sky is not Christian?

I think you focused on my statements on the portion of "Nothing to kill or die for" and missed the rest. Even if you don't agree with nothing to kill for is there nothing that you would die for?



If you have read anything I've posted then you should know that I'm not for war for its sake alone. I own no stock in Raytheon....

Jesus Christ and the New Testament that follows is not a total and complete repudiation of the Old Testament. Instances where the new teachings take precedence over the Old Testament are specific.
I did read your post. But it's yourself you seem to be trying to convince. You're certainly not convincing me.

The fact that you called Lennon Lenin says more about your own political prejudices than it says about either of them.
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Old 09-03-2016, 01:18 PM
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Rhetorical tricks like that aren't intended to be read literally, mate. They're there to amuse those of us who go around with our sarcasm detectors engaged.

In another forum I'm discussing gun control. My interlocutor, an American, refers to disarmed people as "sheeple"; I refer to the gun control lobby as "cavemen" (because "Pro Magnum Man", see?) He does not literally mean that disarmed people are woolly creatures that live on wet hillsides, give birth to lambs in Spring and have a terror of the Welsh, and I do not literally mean that the gun control lobby are knuckle-dragging prognathous simians. We're merely using rhetorical tricks to amuse our own side of the debate and needle the opposition.

Well, same thing with Mohican. He has no intent to convince you because he knows from experience that you're no more likely to be convinced than I am. Mohican merely using the debate forum as a place to play with words, which in fairness is what it's for.
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Old 09-03-2016, 02:44 PM
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Hi Non Serviam.

You said "Mohican merely using the debate forum as a place to play with words, which in fairness is what it's for."

I have trouble with this POV because I think he's deadly serious.

But maybe I'm wrong. The problem with satire is that unless the reader is somehow tipped off they will think the exaggeration is real. I believe he's speaking from his heart.

Why do you think he's not? wrc
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Old 09-03-2016, 02:51 PM
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Is playful irony irreconcilable with serious thought, then?

If so I should never post again, as you must find me thoroughly confusing.
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Old 09-03-2016, 03:23 PM
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Another poster makes an interesting point, what is heaven? Why would some believe in heaven but then think John Lennon was a bit wanky for describing a place with no countries, religion, reason to kill each other etc
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Old 09-03-2016, 03:31 PM
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Hi eripiomundus, (lol, every time I see your 'handle' I wonder if it means anything.)

I checked out the link you supplied and realized I'd seen it before. It's a great take on the anatomy of the Christian myth.

The question of was Jesus a real person or mythological person has been debated for years. It's likely we'll never know for sure.

My take is that regardless of which is true, the value system expressed in his sayings (omitting the bullshit put there to empower Religion) is a good system for people respecting each other.

Did you take a look at my post regarding Lennon's song 'imagine'? I'd love to hear your response to that thread.

Thanks for the post and take care. wrc
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Old 09-03-2016, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
Is playful irony irreconcilable with serious thought, then?

If so I should never post again, as you must find me thoroughly confusing.
I'm uneasy saying you confused me. It's more like I'm befuddled.

Are you suggesting that Mohican is really an atheist? Naw, that can't be.

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Old 09-03-2016, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by wrc View Post
Hi eripiomundus, (lol, every time I see your 'handle' I wonder if it means anything.)

I checked out the link you supplied and realized I'd seen it before. It's a great take on the anatomy of the Christian myth.

The question of was Jesus a real person or mythological person has been debated for years. It's likely we'll never know for sure.

My take is that regardless of which is true, the value system expressed in his sayings (omitting the bullshit put there to empower Religion) is a good system for people respecting each other.

Did you take a look at my post regarding Lennon's song 'imagine'? I'd love to hear your response to that thread.

Thanks for the post and take care. wrc
I agree with Lennon, but I'm an unreformed idealist. Part of me understands human nature - the tendency for people to take advantage when they can - and realises that the kind of thing Lennon was gunning for is unrealistic, but I still agree with it.

"No hell below us, above us only sky...": It's better to do the right thing because it's the right thing, not for the promise of some whimsical cloud-cushioned abode where all your brownie points are rewarded forevermore. Same goes for not doing the wrong thing.

"No countries..." Nationalism is basically an extension of in-group mentality, which is, or at least was, a necessary survival adaptation for mankind to succeed. It starts with the family: those who treat their own family members preferentially thereby confer survival benefit to those that share the same genes, and therefore those genes have a greater chance of being successful.

Scientists have proven that the conscious mind is only capable of concentrating effectively on one thing at a time. Couple this fact with our ingrained tendency toward in-group thinking, and you can see how the relationship between man and things like racism and nationalism come about: the in-group instinct is applied to whatever social cusp is currently occupying the conscious mind - family > tribe > city > state > country > race > continent > planet > solar system > galaxy. (Just an example progression - the order is not as important as the idea).

I haven't checked, but I'd guess that those with a fierce sense of family loyalty would more easily succumb to excessive nationalism or racism etc. The instinct is there, and only needs to be applied to whatever social stratum is momentarily occupying the conscious mind.

As this relates to nations: we're all on the same planet. If you keep that fact in mind, you apply your innate in-group mentality to the planet as a whole, and the need for borders and nations evaporates.

"...nothing to kill or die for...": dying for an idea is misguided romanticism in my opinion, and killing for one is outrageous. Better to live and let go your idea than to kill or die for it. Our thoughts are only the function of our physical being, just as the grip is a function of the hand. If I had to choose between gripping and amputation I'd find another way to masturbate.
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Old 09-03-2016, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
Rhetorical tricks like that aren't intended to be read literally, mate. They're there to amuse those of us who go around with our sarcasm detectors engaged.

In another forum I'm discussing gun control. My interlocutor, an American, refers to disarmed people as "sheeple"; I refer to the gun control lobby as "cavemen" (because "Pro Magnum Man", see?) He does not literally mean that disarmed people are woolly creatures that live on wet hillsides, give birth to lambs in Spring and have a terror of the Welsh, and I do not literally mean that the gun control lobby are knuckle-dragging prognathous simians. We're merely using rhetorical tricks to amuse our own side of the debate and needle the opposition.

Well, same thing with Mohican. He has no intent to convince you because he knows from experience that you're no more likely to be convinced than I am. Mohican merely using the debate forum as a place to play with words, which in fairness is what it's for.
Thanks for the lesson, mate. But it might keep things simpler if we all speak for ourselves. Mohican is big enough to express himself, he doesn't need you to explain his motives.
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Old 09-04-2016, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
I did read your post. But it's yourself you seem to be trying to convince. You're certainly not convincing me.

The fact that you called Lennon Lenin says more about your own political prejudices than it says about either of them.
I don't have to convince myself. You forwarded a completely groundless theory, followed by an accusation.

After you questioned what sort of Christian I must be if I don't liken Jesus's teachings to Imagine I pointed out the incompatibility of Imagine with Christian Beliefs.

Rather than discussing that on it's merits, you chose further innuendo as the path to advance your argument.

Just curious, what does my linking Lenin to Lennon tell you about my "political prejudices?

Tell me what boxes you were able to check off from this.
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Old 09-04-2016, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I don't have to convince myself. You forwarded a completely groundless theory, followed by an accusation.
What groundless theory? What accusation?

Believe what you like, Mohican. Call yourself a Christian if it helps you sleep at night. It doesn't really matter to anyone but yourself.
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  #26  
Old 09-04-2016, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
Is playful irony irreconcilable with serious thought, then?
.

If it is I've wasted way too much time here.
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Old 09-04-2016, 09:47 PM
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Wow, eripiomundus, when I asked what you thought of the 'imagion' song you more than delivered an opinion, you deconstructed the song and had an opinion on each part. I agree with you 110%, Your post follows mine as a reference for others.

I vacillate between giving up in despair and then energized with hope with a good night's sleep.

I'm not going to not comment on your points except to say that I agree with you. I want to add a personal experience.

I love researching. I'm a facts junkie. For the past few months, I've been researching the human Genes in relation to consciousness and socialization. There is research projects everywhere, it seems, dealing with how much of our behavior is determined by our Genes. The bonding you mentioned (in family, groups, country, religion, etc.) seems to be Gene based, with some environmental influences.

What I wanted to know, is if it is even possible to change our minds. I learned it is possible.

Apparently, our minds, the conscious one we're aware of, and the subconscious one feeding thoughts, are changed by telling a different story to the subconscious. The new 'story' replaces the stories told while the brain/mind was still growing. There would be few Believers if Religion was not given the freedom of indoctrination of our children.

Evolution is a better story based on facts than the story of a God who never was. If a solution is possible I'm convinced it will come about because more people get access to education.

As a former teacher, I know that once a person denies others thinking for them, they start thinking for themselves and blossom into self-directed individuals. Most of these people leave Religion.

Finally, you call yourself a 'unreformed idealist'. I've been called an idealist many times, as if it's better to 'go along to get along'. Those who want to lable us 'idealists' should lable themselves as 'status quo boosters'.I congratulate you for remaining 'unreformed'.

Thanks for the time you put into your post. I really appreciated it.

wrc

Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
I agree with Lennon, but I'm an unreformed idealist. Part of me understands human nature - the tendency for people to take advantage when they can - and realises that the kind of thing Lennon was gunning for is unrealistic, but I still agree with it.

"No hell below us, above us only sky...": It's better to do the right thing because it's the right thing, not for the promise of some whimsical cloud-cushioned abode where all your brownie points are rewarded forevermore. Same goes for not doing the wrong thing.

"No countries..." Nationalism is basically an extension of in-group mentality, which is, or at least was, a necessary survival adaptation for mankind to succeed. It starts with the family: those who treat their own family members preferentially thereby confer survival benefit to those that share the same genes, and therefore those genes have a greater chance of being successful.

Scientists have proven that the conscious mind is only capable of concentrating effectively on one thing at a time. Couple this fact with our ingrained tendency toward in-group thinking, and you can see how the relationship between man and things like racism and nationalism come about: the in-group instinct is applied to whatever social cusp is currently occupying the conscious mind - family > tribe > city > state > country > race > continent > planet > solar system > galaxy. (Just an example progression - the order is not as important as the idea).

I haven't checked, but I'd guess that those with a fierce sense of family loyalty would more easily succumb to excessive nationalism or racism etc. The instinct is there, and only needs to be applied to whatever social stratum is momentarily occupying the conscious mind.

As this relates to nations: we're all on the same planet. If you keep that fact in mind, you apply your innate in-group mentality to the planet as a whole, and the need for borders and nations evaporates.

"...nothing to kill or die for...": dying for an idea is misguided romanticism in my opinion, and killing for one is outrageous. Better to live and let go your idea than to kill or die for it. Our thoughts are only the function of our physical being, just as the grip is a function of the hand. If I had to choose between gripping and amputation I'd find another way to masturbate.
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Last edited by wrc; 09-04-2016 at 09:58 PM..
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Old 09-05-2016, 01:39 AM
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Edit: internet keeps dropping out before I finish the post. Will come back to this later when I work things out.

Last edited by eripiomundus; 09-05-2016 at 01:54 AM..
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Old 09-05-2016, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by wrc View Post
Finally, you call yourself a 'unreformed idealist'. I've been called an idealist many times, as if it's better to 'go along to get along'. Those who want to lable us 'idealists' should lable themselves as 'status quo boosters'.I congratulate you for remaining 'unreformed'.
wrc
Fredrick Douglas, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Vaclav Havel were all idealists, but they were also pragmatists and political realists.

Like Richard Stallman said, "If you want to accomplish something in the world, idealism is not enough - you need to choose a method that works to achieve the goal."

So when it comes to reform, I think the negative connotation of "idealist," as in starry-eyed dreamer, applies when there isn't any hint at methods or any practical plan of action.

The people who can recognize that aren't endorsing the status quo, they just know that idealism in and of itself isn't of much value.

Last edited by Myers; 09-05-2016 at 06:05 AM..
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  #30  
Old 09-05-2016, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post

"...nothing to kill or die for...": dying for an idea is misguided romanticism in my opinion, and killing for one is outrageous. Better to live and let go your idea than to kill or die for it. Our thoughts are only the function of our physical being, just as the grip is a function of the hand. If I had to choose between gripping and amputation I'd find another way to masturbate.
eripiomundus, is it an "idea" that we have any basic human rights? And if so, are they not something worth defending? Or are they just "thoughts" that you can let go if someone is determined to take them away from you?
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