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  #1  
Old 11-18-2009, 12:02 PM
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Are guys really doing this?

http://www.reuters.com/article/inter...5A246320091103

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Old 11-18-2009, 12:08 PM
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Gadzooks, that's terrible!
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:56 PM
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That's disturbing...
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:14 PM
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Wow, that's like, mega-weird.

Whoops, late for my salon appointment. Must dash!

xxx
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Old 11-18-2009, 02:21 PM
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*hugs Winterbite* Be back soon, sweetie.
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Old 11-18-2009, 02:29 PM
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Hahaha! Ohh...that's a picture...
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Old 11-18-2009, 02:30 PM
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What? He's cute...
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:16 PM
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CV I didn't know that about you....

Yeah, I found the article disturbing and weird.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:21 PM
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Relax, I'm just kidding. I'm straight as they get. No offense, Winterbite.

These days it doesn't really surprise me that some guys do that. There have been several occasions where I have seen a (usually young) person and honestly couldn't tell if it was a he or she.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:35 PM
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Am I missing the point here?
Isn’t it good that they are actually have emotions and are not just big slaps of emotionless robotic meat?
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ChickenViking View Post
There have been several occasions where I have seen a (usually young) person and honestly couldn't tell if it was a he or she.
I've seen some old people like that but mostly because the women have such short hair (except on their chins) and their clothes are so baggy.
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:07 PM
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If guys are doin it, they don't live in Florida.
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:21 PM
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Hey, you try taking care of this much fur without going to a salon once in a while. Y'all think wolves have it sooo easy....

Check out this song--it's on topic!

Relevant lyrics :D


Yeah, I know what you mean about not being able to tell genders sometimes... that can freak me out.
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Old 11-18-2009, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tau View Post
Am I missing the point here?
Isnt it good that they are actually have emotions and are not just big slaps of emotionless robotic meat?
There's nothing wrong with men having emotions, of course. The problem is when they take it too far. There's nothing wrong with a bit of dirt under your fingernails, and so what if your hair get messed up in the rain? I know this could easily come out wrong, and I apologize in advance. But it seems a lot of men, and especially men in the cities, are turning more and more feminine. Women on the other hand have fought for their rights for a very long time, and are becoming more and more masculine. The line between man and woman are fading, sadly. What happened to the good, old days when women tried to look really pretty and men was the tough ones?

Of course I think men and women should have the same rights, the same jobs, the same payment and all that. That's not what this is about.

Edit: As for men looking like women, this is a guy.
Seriously.
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:26 AM
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Exactly! I want a real man not some guy who I can't tell if he's a man or woman and who is more worried about ruining their hair than I am. I like being femine and I want a man, not some boy with tight jeans and a manicure. It's fine if they have emotions, but the problem is when men can't even change their own tire, or oil. The gender roles are reversing quickly. There are a ton of articles out there about emasculated men.




Real Man



Emasculated man
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:41 AM
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I don't know what the fuss is. I've always thought "traditional" gender roles for men were as crippling as the ones for women. Men aren't supposed to cry and women are supposed to be "emotional"? Men aren't supposed to like art and women aren't supposed to enjoy physical activity? Where did we get these bizarre ideas? And it seems the more women break free, the tighter they want to tie their men. If a woman can play sports without compromising her femininity, that should mean that a guy can dress nice without compromising his. Instead, the message I'm seeing is that the men have to be extra manly to offer contrast with the less girly girls.

Men around the world (outside of western culture, anyway) can show affection and feeling without being labeled gay or weird or "metrosexual". In the Middle East, men hold hands with each other. Men kiss each other's cheeks in other places. Why in our world should their physical contact be limited to pounding each other on the back or shaking hands?

I don't see adding X to the end of a text as a sign that the man has become effeminate. Just that he's taking advantage of his medium to show the affection he may feel constrained from showing otherwise. That affection is a perfectly natural, even manly, thing. If guys get mocked for that, too, where on Earth can they be loving?
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Karolina View Post
Emasculated man
argh, it sparkles

*runes for the hills*
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:50 AM
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Men can have emotions. And I have no problem with them kissing as a form of greeting, and I come from a culture that does that, but it seems to me that it's gone too far to the other extreme now. There is no inbetween. I see men out there who are married and have kids that sound more gay than real gay men (no offense to gay men). I'm not saying men should go around not ever crying or showing any form of emotions, but what I've noticed for the past few years is not being able to tell if a man is a man or not.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:06 AM
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I'm with Karolina. Emotions are fine, but it can go too far. Also, it's quite one thing to stick an x at the end of a text to a close male friend but quite another to use it for casual or work acquaintances - which was something the original article mentioned.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by HoiLei View Post
If a woman can play sports without compromising her femininity, that should mean that a guy can dress nice without compromising his.
Now that's a very good point. Can they? I'm honestly not so sure. This is a touchy subject, so let me say right now I have nothing against women playing sports. The average man is stronger than the average woman, but an atlethic woman is stronger than the average man.

The question is if women can play professional sports and still keep their femininity. Women don't get huge muscles like men, but they can get muscles. The problem is we get big muscles, it shows all over the body. This isn't a problem for men, as they are "supposed to" have big muscles and all that. But when women do it, they tend to get smaller breasts, a wider waist and so on. In short, they start to loose their female forms, and thus can easily loose their femininity. Keep in mind I am only talking professional atlethes here, of course. An extreme example are female body builders. I have seen quite a few over the years on TV and in magazines, and quite often I have a problem seeing if it's a male or female. The face might be feminine, but the rest of the body is more or less male. No breasts (or at least very small ones), big biceps, no waist and so on. I saw one naked on a documentary once, and even then it was a bit hard to see what gender she was.

As for the kiss on the cheek, I find it weird as I'm not used to it, but I accept it as part of the guy's culture. Hugging is fine if it is someone I like or family, but I hug men a lot different than I hug women. Hugging a woman can often get a bit close and last a few seconds, but when I hug another man, there are barely any bodily contact at all and the whole thing is over almost before it starts.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Q wands
Emotions are fine, but it can go too far. Also, it's quite one thing to stick an x at the end of a text to a close male friend but quite another to use it for casual or work acquaintances - which was something the original article mentioned.
It could go too far, but I don't think it is in this case. We have to take the medium into account because it influences the message. That texted X is probably something like smiley faces or "lol" on forums, which are often used to show friendliness even if the person is not actually smiling or laughing out loud. Girls who "squee" and "glomp" each other on the internet probably wouldn't behave like that if they met in real life. In the same way, the men who X casual acquaintances would not dream of actually kissing them. I think it just means friendliness in the text. Heck, if they do it and see it enough, they may feel like a text without an X is formal or cold, which is why they save that for the boss.

And if we women don't really mind men being affectionate, why does an article like this prompt pictures of Clint Eastwood and talk about how guys should be rough and gruff? Suddenly we fall back on the props of traditional manhood, like fishing boxes, garages, dirty nails. That stuff is not relevant to many guys today, as unnatural to them as skirts and heels are to many girls. Clint Eastwood's persona is anti-affectionate. He wouldn't text at all. He hardly communicates except with laconic menace.

Originally Posted by ChickenViking
The question is if women can play professional sports and still keep their femininity. Women don't get huge muscles like men, but they can get muscles. . . . But when women do it, they tend to get smaller breasts, a wider waist and so on. In short, they start to loose their female forms, and thus can easily loose their femininity.
Only if you equate femininity with form, which does a disservice to plenty of women who are not athletic. By your definition, women with naturally androgynous forms, Eleanor Rooosevelt, older women, fat women, etc. would all be unfeminine.

We seriously need some new gender definitions.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:59 AM
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If the X is a new form of lol, what will be next? Men saying they love each other? (in a friendly way, of course).

Of course think form has a lot to do about femininity, but it's not all that matters. To me, femininity are a lot of things. Form, yes, but also personality, the way she talks, the way she walks, the way she eats her dinner and all that. A feminine woman are a lot more graceful, beautiful and elegant than a man in every way. This is very hard when you look like a man, just like it's tough for a man to be masculine and strong when he's afraid to walk outside because his hair will get messed up in the wind.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:11 AM
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I agree with CV. I like to see feminine women and masculine men. Lately, I've seen more younger girls looking more manly and vice versa. Biologically, we are built different and naturally we will never be able to do the same things. Yes, I'm for equal opportunities, and I was a college feminist, but I've learned as I've grown older that while we can respect and treat each other as equals on certain levels we can never really be equal because we are built differently. I wouldn't want to be with a man who goes around sending x to his male friends. Really, beyond my teenage years, I don't do that to my female friends and I would have no respect for a grown man who would do that. Perhaps my examples were extreme, but I get more turned on by someone who knows that they are a man, than a whimpy guy who is afraid of being himself because he might not be liked, and is more fashionable than I am.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ChickenViking View Post
If the X is a new form of lol, what will be next? Men saying they love each other? (in a friendly way, of course).
God forbid. You know that lots of people, male and female, do that already, right? I texted a joke to a female friend recently, and she replied "OMG, lol, I love you. Seriously."

Originally Posted by ChickenViking View Post
Of course think form has a lot to do about femininity, but it's not all that matters. To me, femininity are a lot of things. Form, yes, but also personality, the way she talks, the way she walks, the way she eats her dinner and all that. A feminine woman are a lot more graceful, beautiful and elegant than a man in every way.
Your definition of feminine and mine are radically different. Most of the things you describe are an act women put on, but not innate to the woman. I like to dress nice and wear heels, but that's only one aspect of my femininity. If I were wearing my schlumpy hang-around-the-house clothes and up to my elbows in dishes, or eating with my elbows on the table, I'd still be feminine. I know an overweight woman with an extremely deep voice and a mannish haircut, but I count her one of the most feminine people I know. As for personality... what exactly is a feminine personality?

Originally Posted by ChickenViking View Post
This is very hard when you look like a man, just like it's tough for a man to be masculine and strong when he's afraid to walk outside because his hair will get messed up in the wind.
You're responding still to my sentence that a man can dress nice without compromising his masculinity? Slippery slope fallacy. It's a bit of a jump from "dressing nice" and "being afraid to walk outside because his hair will get messed up in the wind".

Originally Posted by Karolina View Post
Perhaps my examples were extreme, but I get more turned on by someone who knows that they are a man, than a whimpy guy who is afraid of being himself because he might not be liked, and is more fashionable than I am.
Same slippery slope CV is on. The article is not talking about wimpy men. We know nothing about them except that they add X to their texts. Maybe they're mountain climbing, bass fishing stock brokers with great personal integrity and emotional courage. We don't know. To assume "wimpy" and "effeminate" from one X is what I consider extreme. And I think such an attitude is damaging to us all because it suggests that even one "misstep" means you've lost your gender identity and others will scorn you.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by HoiLei View Post
Same slippery slope CV is on. The article is not talking about wimpy men. We know nothing about them except that they add X to their texts. Maybe they're mountain climbing, bass fishing stock brokers with great personal integrity and emotional courage. We don't know. To assume "wimpy" and "effeminate" from one X is what I consider extreme. And I think such an attitude is damaging to us all because it suggests that even one "misstep" means you've lost your gender identity and others will scorn you.
Where I'm coming from is from what I see around me. It's not about being scorned for one misstep, but a snowball effect of actions that I've seen. That's what worries me. Where does it end? What is to become of genders? Are we to happily blend into an androgynous society?

Yes, you can be feminine while dressed in sweatpants, but it's the feminine air that you carry with you. That is what I feel we seem to be losing. I've seen plenty of women with short hair who have an air of femininity, as well as plenty of women who are in dresses and full make-up and look masculine still.
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:03 AM
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Interesting topic... Provokes quite a lot of thought. I'm not particularly fussed on anything 'metrosexuals' do or don't do, as I am about anything other guys do in general. If they want to add X's to the end of their texts, that's their own shit. I would be pretty weird about a guy randomly texting me kisses though. Not so much that I'd think of it as a come-on, but moreso that it's a bit of a statement about who they are, such as neck tatt's and shaved heads... That's a massive stereotype, but stereotypes don't come about for no reason. A guy that feels the need to be so affectionate probably wouldn't be my ideal mate and without further incentive I probably wouldn't end up becoming tight with them. Not that I'd hold it against said person.

I like my guy mates masculine and my female friends feminine. With the lads I can wrestle/punch/abuse them without having to worry about breaking their nails and it's just mate shit. With the girls I can hug/talk emotional/protect without feeling like I'm compromising myself or themselves in any way. I feel that we're genetically wired different and tend to view the world differently and with equal importance. If there's a confrontation or a fight, I go to my boys and if there's high-fuelled emotional situations, I go to my girls.

I do realise that these roles are shifting and I have nothing against it. But, I think they're shifting because western society has become litigated to the point that it's not needed anymore. When you travel to (most) places that are basic, guys protect their families and women keep them functioning internally. I don't think that's a bad thing. Should those roles change as society becomes built up, then that's cool too. I will say though, when there's a noise in the dark downstairs at night, who's the one to go check it out? When something subtle happens at a dinner party, who's the one to normally pick up on it?

I don't really care who does what and what gender they are. My personal opinion is that traditional gender roles aren't an evil thing to be remedied though. Keep my brothers tough and my sisters feminine :-).

Then again, I am really drunk at the moment so these views could be different sober. ...
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:26 AM
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At least your grammar doesn't suffer when you're drunk

I'm definitely not of the mind that men have to be rough, tough, insensitive types, or that women have to be emotional and sensitive or whatever. I know in some cultures, especially in the Middle East, men hold hands when they're talking and don't want to be interrupted, and it's A-okay with everyone else. That's fine, but due to my own culture, I'd find it a little awkward to hold hands while talking

Two men signing off with kisses to each other, though, seems a thing completely born of the online world and the anonymity it brings, so I'm not really worried about it shaping gender roles. It's a little odd, but I don't think most of these "metrotextuals" would actually kiss each other goodbye! I don't want to get into a big furball about men and women and what they should and shouldn't be, so I'll just cut it off there
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:39 AM
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Hahaha, yeah I try to keep the grammar in check even when smashed. It was a biiiiiiiiig night in the clubs. Good times.

Onto your post... Yeah, I've been to the Middle East where men hold hands normally and I even engaged in it myself for shits. However, in their culture that is standard. It's completely different when contrasted against another culture. Drawing comparisons between the two is apples and oranges. In western culture, the act of two men holding hands is jarring to the public eye as is guys sending text-kisses to each other (as evidenced by reactions in this thread).

Like I said, I don't really care what any people do. The joy of experiencing other cultures is engaging in it. But when people go against the grain then it's definitely noticable and somewhat of a statement about who they are.
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Karolina View Post
Where does it end? What is to become of genders? Are we to happily blend into an androgynous society?
No danger of that. What we call "traditional" genders will always exist because they're natural for some people. I'm naturally girly, and I fit well into a woman's "traditional" role. Some guys are naturally Clint Eastwood. But between the two extremes, there are endless gradients. Androgyny does exist, as do masculine women and feminine men. And when we emphasize some sharp demarcation between male and female as "how it should be", we ignore reality and make people feel uncomfortable with themselves when they see that they don't fit the role. I don't think the extremes will ever die, but we should remember that in a world that only accepts tough men and soft women, a large number of people cannot be true to themselves.

(In case you're wondering why I feel like "traditional" needs quotation marks, it's because we don't know what tradition we're really hearkening back to. Take clothing, for instance. The further you go back in history, the more you see men dressing in what we now consider "womanly" ways: with silks, bows, ribbons, jewelry, make-up, wigs, high heels, etc. The idea of a man being more plain than a woman is a newer thing, starting around the 1800's in English speaking countries. Look at some old portraits to see what I mean: our conception of "masculine" is recent. All the more reason we shouldn't be surprised or wigged out when people don't fit into it.)

Originally Posted by Janx View Post
I like my guy mates masculine and my female friends feminine.
Lots of people say that, always stressing that anything else is "okay for other people and I won't judge". But suppose one of your manly guy friends is only faking because he knows he won't be accepted by you otherwise? Maybe he just doesn't care about sports, and your punches on the arm annoy him, but he knows as a guy he's supposed to buck up and take it. Then you don't really know him, do you? If he asked you to stop rough-housing or if he let you see him reading poetry, would you stop being friends because you like your men "manly"? Or would you think maybe you were being judgmental after all and it's okay for him to be himself? I know it's hard to wrap you're head around someone behaving outside of your norm--I've had to do it--but if you respect a person, you respect a person.

Originally Posted by Janx View Post
But when people go against the grain then it's definitely noticable and somewhat of a statement about who they are.
Exactly. And it's not a bad thing to go against the grain if the grain is unnatural, as a binary gender system is. Sex and gender really don't have a one-to-one correspondence.
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Old 11-19-2009, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by HoiLei
It could go too far, but I don't think it is in this case. We have to take the medium into account because it influences the message. That texted X is probably something like smiley faces or "lol" on forums, which are often used to show friendliness even if the person is not actually smiling or laughing out loud. Girls who "squee" and "glomp" each other on the internet probably wouldn't behave like that if they met in real life. In the same way, the men who X casual acquaintances would not dream of actually kissing them. I think it just means friendliness in the text. Heck, if they do it and see it enough, they may feel like a text without an X is formal or cold, which is why they save that for the boss.
I have no idea what glomping and squeeing are (and am not overly curious) but I do not understand why someone would send kisses to a person they would not kiss. Would you punch someone on the nose whom you did not dislike?

And if sending an X is equivalent to smiley faces or LOL, why not use smiley faces or similar significant letter anagrams? In other words, the X is not the only means available to these people for expressing their feelings.

As for the medium, take it into account if you will, but what does sending X's to virtual strangers say about us as humans? That we are losing touch - actual, physical touch - with other humans, and that we rely more and more on cyber contact. What a false world that is! And I do realise the irony of saying that on an internet forum, but I am well aware of where the real world ends and where this amorphous world begins.

Originally Posted by HoiLei
And if we women don't really mind men being affectionate, why does an article like this prompt pictures of Clint Eastwood and talk about how guys should be rough and gruff? Suddenly we fall back on the props of traditional manhood, like fishing boxes, garages, dirty nails. That stuff is not relevant to many guys today, as unnatural to them as skirts and heels are to many girls. Clint Eastwood's persona is anti-affectionate. He wouldn't text at all. He hardly communicates except with laconic menace.
Clint Eastwood would not be my choice for an ideal alpha male (any guy whose idea of foreplay consists of "Honey, did you floss?" is a bit of an ass in my opinion) but then everyone will have their own preference. Give me Christopher Walken anyday. Big, rough, and tough he ain't but he's got a swagger and charisma that is hard to beat.

But let's be fair. The pictures that accompany articles are not selected by the journalists themselves; picture editors do that.

Originally Posted by ChickenViking
Of course think form has a lot to do about femininity, but it's not all that matters. To me, femininity are a lot of things. Form, yes, but also personality, the way she talks, the way she walks, the way she eats her dinner and all that. A feminine woman are a lot more graceful, beautiful and elegant than a man in every way. This is very hard when you look like a man, just like it's tough for a man to be masculine and strong when he's afraid to walk outside because his hair will get messed up in the wind.
Originally Posted by Karolina
Yes, you can be feminine while dressed in sweatpants, but it's the feminine air that you carry with you. That is what I feel we seem to be losing. I've seen plenty of women with short hair who have an air of femininity, as well as plenty of women who are in dresses and full make-up and look masculine still.
Too true. There are girls who are full-on pink frilly types, those who are feminine in a less traditional way, and those who galumph about whatever you put them in. Ditto men (only being masculine, of course! ). I don't think anyone wants all men to be big, tough nuts or all women to be soft and swooning, but lord above let's not lose the finer points of difference. If we all think, act, and dress the same we might as well be hermaphrodites.


Originally Posted by HoiLei
(In case you're wondering why I feel like "traditional" needs quotation marks, it's because we don't know what tradition we're really hearkening back to. Take clothing, for instance. The further you go back in history, the more you see men dressing in what we now consider "womanly" ways: with silks, bows, ribbons, jewelry, make-up, wigs, high heels, etc. The idea of a man being more plain than a woman is a newer thing, starting around the 1800's in English speaking countries. Look at some old portraits to see what I mean: our conception of "masculine" is recent. All the more reason we shouldn't be surprised or wigged out when people don't fit into it.)
Men dressed that way for the same reason that male lions have manes or peacocks have tail feathers - to attract women. Don't forget that they were also generally pretty good with a sword or pistol, so far from being soft.
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