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Mohican 04-29-2018 06:57 AM

Subjects or Citizens & Government Health Care
 
Subtitled the Alphie Evans tragedy.

Who knows. He might have died going to Italy. He might also have lived.

He was never given the chance.

Mohican 04-29-2018 07:00 AM

This bolster my desire for states to start seceding, or have and article V convention and lose the 14th amendment. Or both. Although this happened in the UK the US government is also tilting in this direction.

bluewpc 04-29-2018 08:28 AM

Obviously he would have died because he you know...died. Although one could argue that he died the moment he entered a vegetative state. Which is important because he was in that state for more than a year during which his condition continued to worsen and his brain mass was reduced by 70% in a process known as liquefactive necrosis. It should be noted that while brain tissue can heal itself it cannot regenerate lost tissue so barring some medical miracle the state that he was in was the absolute best he could have ever hoped for.

I did some research on the suspected condition and what most doctors suspect is an unspecified mitochondrial disease. A little background. Mitochondria are responsible for conversion of energy, cell death, signaling and cell differentiation.

Different types of disorders exist but most stem from errors in mitochondrial DNA which I discovered is actually separate from nuclear DNA and lacks a proofreader so to speak, making mitochondrial mutations common. They have exceedingly high mortality rates among children though according to the study those above age five seem to have better chances of survival:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17403843

"Mitochondrial diseases in children span a wide range of symptoms and severities. Age at first symptoms is the strongest predictor mortality."

"At present, 46% of patients have died [out of 73] (median age: 13 months), 80% of whom were <3 years of age."

To wit pumping air into a flesh bag without any chance of recovery seems a little sick to me. That he survived some days without life support is indicative of nothing as he had been in a continually worsening vegetative state for a full year at that point.

Secondly. I kind of wish some states would secede just so we could bomb the ever loving shit out of them. You seem to have a poor understanding of warfare. How exactly do you think secession would succeed?

brianpatrick 04-29-2018 08:45 AM

Subjects. And thereís not a lot we can do about it.

There will come an enemy, so powerful, so threatening, that the world will unite against it. ISIS is peanuts in comparison.

Lucky for your philosophy the major points of attack will be large cities like Los Angeles, New York, Seattle, et al. Liberal bastions. Also Paris, London, Milan, Toronto, Helsinki, and maybe Mexico City.

I figure you just have to wait it out, bro. I donít think Jesus will really come back and join the fight, but I donít think thatís what John of Patmos was really talking about anyway.

The 14th Amendment and secession will become irrelevant. And youíll be able to do whatever you want in the margins. Itíll be like a reset.

Iím going to concentrate on preserving the technology that will inevitably be lost in the melee.

brianpatrick 04-29-2018 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluewpc (Post 744522)

Secondly. I kind of wish some states would secede just so we could bomb the ever loving shit out of them. You seem to have a poor understanding of warfare. How exactly do you think secession would succeed?



But they have lots of guns and survival training out there in the Ozarkís (or wherever). Not sure a 50 cal. will reach a naval ship launching missiles from 1000 miles away, but itís possible with Jesusí help. I suggest praying a lot. That seems to help.

bluewpc 04-29-2018 11:21 AM

Sheehit if the power of christ can compel the good lord thank you satan then you know it can swat a few heathen tomahawks out of the firmament.

Konan 04-29-2018 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluewpc (Post 744529)
Sheehit if the power of christ can compel the good lord thank you satan then you know it can swat a few heathen tomahawks out of the firmament.

Satan rules! Hail Satan! He is the king of this world! Let his reign endure forever!

JohnConstantine 04-30-2018 02:47 AM

Personally I think the people out in the streets antagonising medical professionals whilst also being totally clueless about the details and extent of the boys condition was stomach churning and only made a bad situation worse.

It's sad, but reality is sad. In these cases vitriol against anyone in particular is totally misguided. If he were mine, I'd be furious and tell them all to return to their homes immediately.

More broadly speaking the way we treat medical professionals in general is mind blowing to me. We seem to have this idea that every death is preventable and health is something which can be turned on and off at the flick of a switch and anyone withheld from this wizardry must have been mistreated.

To be realistic about two things today, a) you can't save everyone and b) health is significantly the responsibility of the individual (this obviously doesn't concern this case) has been interpreted as cold and heartless.

It's hard enough speaking these tragic truths without being vilified... seems so often like a thankless occupation.

JohnConstantine 04-30-2018 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluewpc (Post 744522)
To wit pumping air into a flesh bag without any chance of recovery seems a little sick to me.

This is exactly right. And not just a little sick.

flyingtart 04-30-2018 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohican (Post 744516)
Subtitled the Alphie Evans tragedy.

Who knows. He might have died going to Italy. He might also have lived.

He was never given the chance.

I wouldn't pay too much heed to Farage. He loves to turn everything into a crusade, and always for entirely selfish reasons.

bluewpc 04-30-2018 08:03 AM

Another thing I want to point Mo since you use this incident as somehow an indictment against the US and UK governments. I saw a video of the parents and I was immediately struck by how unaffluent they appeared ( See the picture of wife and husband about halfway down. The man's suit is untailored.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/431253...latest-update/)

Now this is relevant to the OP stating that Alfie was never given a chance but this is blatantly wrong. According to the timeline Alfie was admitted on the 1st December 2016. He did not die until April 28th 2018. As he was given care all of this time one wonders, especially in America, how was this paid for?

The answer is the UK's NHS, which provided almost a year and a half of care free. In America the parents after this ordeal would have been millions of dollars in debt and the infant still would have died. Bankruptcy can discharge medical debt but there is a significant risk that you lose all of your property.

Heres a link to a study about hospital costs of pediatric ICU:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Intensive_Care

" The study population was similar to that of other studies of pediatric intensive care. The PICU was 86% efficient. The total cost for PICU care was $16,983,323. Average cost per admission was $12,342 +/- $22,313, and average cost per patient day was $2,264 +/- $868. The cost because of the PICU location (room cost) was 52.1% of all costs, and cost of laboratory studies was 18.3%. Respiratory therapy, pharmacy services, and radiology each accounted for between 6% and 8%.

Hospital Costs of Pediatric Intensive Care. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Intensive_Care [accessed Apr 30 2018]."

So obviously the US is moving nowhere in the direction of universal health care but you know it wouldnt be bad if we did.

Mohican 04-30-2018 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluewpc (Post 744522)

Secondly. I kind of wish some states would secede just so we could bomb the ever loving shit out of them. You seem to have a poor understanding of warfare. How exactly do you think secession would succeed?

If states wanted to secede, especially peacefully secede why would you want to bomb the everliving shit out of them?

How did the 13 colonies survive when they seceded from Great Britain?

Minus a war, why wouldn't the CSA have survived?

Mohican 04-30-2018 06:23 PM

Without going into a back and forth about if the doctors might have been wrong, and Alfie might not have been in a vegetative state, if private funds were raised, and it would not affect the UK health care system, what would be the objection?

Mohican 04-30-2018 06:34 PM

I don't have an argument with unplugging a person in a known vegetative state. Growing up, we thought keeping people on life support was something against God's will.

Somehow, a lot of the church has taken a 180 on that. Probably baby boomers staring down their mortality and blinking.

brianpatrick 05-01-2018 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohican (Post 744558)
I don't have an argument with unplugging a person in a known vegetative state. Growing up, we thought keeping people on life support was something against God's will.

Somehow, a lot of the church has taken a 180 on that. Probably baby boomers staring down their mortality and blinking.



Iím thinking itís more us vs them, in a general way. Whatever theyíre arguing for, we argue the opposite. I donít know why people are like that, but they are. In times of change or uncertainty, humans revert to that mentality.

The one thing you and I may agree on is that humans, despite their protestations to the contrary, are weak, petty, and fallible on many levels. Not all of them, but most.

Itís like that old Twilight Zone episode... just cut the power for 24 hrs (in the US especially) and it becomes hell on earth really quickly.

bluewpc 05-02-2018 09:01 AM

If states wanted to secede, especially peacefully secede why would you want to bomb the everliving shit out of them?*

How did the 13 colonies survive when they seceded from Great Britain?*

Minus a war, why wouldn't the CSA have survived?

You seem to have a powerful wish to have secession while skipping the process of secession, while ignoring the animosities that precede secession. This is not like a mutual divorce where both sides through intermediaries agree to a bloodless split with equal divisions of property. The forces that drive a state to rend in twain are the most violent forces and there is every motivation for the existing house to violently curtail the process because from its perspective secession is theft, of its property, its citizenry, its a rebuke to its law, its history, its culture.

The 13 colonies survived through two wars with its parent state and asking about the CSA is ridiculous. Its like asking why a person wouldnt have survived if they hadnt caught cholera.

I take your peaceful secession with as much salt as I take Spencer's peaceful ethnic cleansing. What you continue to fail to understand is that I am an American and what damages the state damages me. There is a line from King Henry V that sums my position well:

KATHARINE
Is it possible dat I sould love de enemy of France?

KING HENRY V
No; it is not possible you should love the enemy of
France, Kate: but, in loving me, you should love
the friend of France; for I love France so well that
I will not part with a village of it; I will have it
all mine: and, Kate, when France is mine and I am
yours, then yours is France and you are mine.




Without going into a back and forth about if the doctors might have been wrong, and Alfie might not have been in a vegetative state, if private funds were raised, and it would not affect the UK health care system, what would be the objection?

Why no objections other than moral, but this isnt what you were talking about. This is bait and switch. You were employing the boy's death as an argument for secession and an indictment of the US and UK governments. Now that your argument was so completely rebuffed you want to act as though the conversation was about parental rights to privately fund medical care? Not particularly intellectually honest of yeeeeeeeeee...

Mohican 05-05-2018 06:47 AM

This wasn't a binary discussion on my part, nor a bait and switch. Please forgive me for offering multiple thoughts in an opening post.

You may have a point about whether or not the boys condition was survivable, but that in itself was not the original argument. If I wanted, I could search and find "experts", real or otherwise to say the boy wasn't brain dead, in a vegetative state, coma, etc. That wasn't the argument.

The primary argument was about who should have the decision.

There were other things in this story. Doctors, and the judge involved were not happy that Alfie's father seemed so insistent of pursuing a cure.... Especially when it was offered by another set of Doctors, and ....funded..... and funded not by the British Crown, so to speak so why not allow Alfie to be flown (not costing the UK subjects further monies)

I don't find your answer a rebuff to my question. Nor do I find anything that you offered hence a rebuff.


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